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Transcript
Intro Music
Introduction
Nicki Pappas 0:15
Hello and welcome to another episode of Broadening the Narrative. This is a podcast where I talk to people who are broadening the narrative I was taught. The music for today’s episode is “Design” by Bandy featuring Nicki Pappas. I'm your host, Nicki Pappas. My pronouns are she and her. My favorite color is pink. I’m a sucker for it and don’t care about the shade. And I'm so glad you're here.
Sequana Murray 0:43
I'm totally down with just giving Black people this lump sum of money.
Nicki Pappas 0:50
Say it again.
Sequana Murray 0:51
A lump sum of money. Of undefined amounts.
First Segment
Nicki Pappas 1:03
On today's episode of Broadening the Narrative, I am joined by hip hop artist and poet Sequana Murray. We will be discussing the realities of poverty as well as the necessity of reparations. If you’ve been listening to the podcast from the beginning, you may recognize Sequana as the very first guest on season 1 from her episode about intersectionality. I’ve known Sequana for a few years now, and we met because we used to be part of the same church. And I am so thankful for you and your friendship, Sequana, and I am looking forward to our conversation today. And thank you for coming onto the podcast again.
Sequana Murray 1:39
Yeah, thank you for having me. This is great.
Nicki Pappas 1:42
Yes. Well, after we talked about your episode in season one, you had mentioned that you didn't talk about poverty as much as you had thought you would. So I'm glad that you wanted to come back on the show again to be able to address the realities of poverty. I figured we could start off talking about something you brought up one time where you saw that someone you're friends with on Facebook shared a post about people who have children who qualify for free or reduced lunch having parents who purchase cigarettes and alcohol, and maybe lottery tickets was on the list or something else like that, and the person sharing the post added Starbucks to the list. And we talked after you saw that post about the belief that people who are living in poverty should suffer and shouldn't enjoy things like Starbucks or anything deemed non-essential, which is something taught, or at the very least implied, by many Christian financial advisors and then adopted by many Christians. We talked about this when we first got on the call, but I was one of those Christians who adopted that mindset and caused damage by judging others in this area, so I don’t want to approach this conversation as if I am doing it right. I have a lot of growing to do, but I was wondering if you could talk about how that post made you feel as well as any insights you have regarding that post and the sentiment behind it.
Sequana Murray 3:17
Yeah. Yeah, a lot of time, posts like that just really, like just burn me up because of the presumptions that people just have just about people in poverty in general. And, like, I just I hate all those stereotypes. I hate them all. And I feel like, you know, what you quote unquote, deserve to eat or enjoy should not be determined by like, what's in your bank account, like if a person even has a bank account at all. It's like, you know, the same people who quote Dr. King and say, “Oh, we should judge people by the content of their character,” you know, will with that same mouth go on a rant if I decide to put crab legs or ice cream on my EBT card. And it makes me think about like, now there's definitely like scriptures that people use to kind of justify that mentality. Like, you know, that he who doesn't work shouldn't eat or people who've used scriptures and Proverbs like that talk about sluggards and equate someone's poverty to their work ethic. And in those instances, I think about Moses and the Hebrews and how Pharaoh called them lazy when they couldn't produce bricks at the same rates as they did before he decided to take their straw away, and I just find that so interesting. Like he was the one who stopped giving them the straws and left them out on their own and still had the nerve to go call them lazy. And I feel like so many, there's like, there's all across America, like there's so many like localities that are kind of like mini Egypts, like the people have like those similar sort of mentality where people have so much stacked against them and are called lazy because of a lack of equal opportunity afforded to them. And, you know, this thus determines, like, people's worth in their eyes, and I just, I despise it all.
Nicki Pappas 5:44
Yes, I really love you bringing up that mini Egypts idea. It’s really fascinating to think about, and to see that being replicated in our country, what we saw and read, or what we read about happening in the bible with Pharaoh. And yeah, like all these scriptures that we're using, you know, because for us, right, like our context, as Christians, we see the bible used like that. And I see it now as a way to justify not loving our neighbors who live in poverty, because we can take those scriptures, right, and weaponize them against someone, and I've talked about this on the podcast before, but the late Rachel Held Evans who talked about we can use the bible as a weapon against people. And we are very good at that. And we do that as Christians quite often. Or we can use the bible to bring balm for healing. And so that's something I'm still wanting to grow in is being able to not weaponize the bible against people. So yeah, you mentioned stereotypes and how you hate them all. So what would you say are some of the most common stereotypes perpetuated about people who live in poverty?
Sequana Murray 7:05
Definitely the number one that comes to my mind is that, you know, poor people are lazy. Or that, you know, they're not, quote unquote, successful because they're not trying hard enough to acquire the goals that they have in mind. And, you know, also, like stereotypes like that people in poverty, you know, they don't know how to make decisions or that they want to be reliant upon the government to get by. And I’m here to say, like, no, like, that's just not it, like, and I hate that, that people have those perceptions about people. And I'm sure like, in this society, it's easy to draw those conclusions about people just upon a first glance, but you know, I would encourage people to just dig deeper and ask more questions or, you know, just not be so quick to judge. It does more harm than good.
Nicki Pappas 8:21
Yeah. Yeah. So all of those stereotypes you just mentioned are dehumanizing. So could you speak to the dehumanization connected to those stereotypes?
Sequana Murray 8:33
Well, in one sense, it definitely, like when I feel like people have that perception about me, it makes me feel like I'm less than capable than you, like, or that there are intellectual, like, barriers, just because like, I'm poor, like, I can't, I can't, you know, budget, I can't make good decisions for my family. Like, it makes, I think in a broader sense, as people like, feel like, okay, these people are less than or just on a lower spectrum intellectually, because like, this is the output that we're seeing from their work ethic, and you know, that definitely is hurtful and I think harmful to others, and then how we treat people. So off the bat, like, that's the first thing that comes to mind.
Nicki Pappas 9:44
So probably 5 to 7 years ago now, Stephen and I knew some people who owned a business and would donate food that was going to expire, but they complained about the people receiving the food having preferences or making requests, which I now see as dehumanizing as it erases the humanity of those receiving the food to have likes and dislikes, and it also infringes on their autonomy and agency, which all of these stereotypes do as there’s this desire, whether intentional or not, for the privileged to have control or be in control over those who are not privileged. And I think as I’ve learned more about white saviorism, I can see how it positions those donating as saviors and the recipients as objects that should just be grateful for the quote generosity of the givers. So I would love to hear your thoughts about this situation as well as anything you have to say to anyone who is giving in order to be thanked or appreciated.
Sequana Murray 10:59
It all boils down to like what we would be willing to accept for our own selves and our family.
Nicki Pappas 11:08
Yeah, well, I was thinking as you were talking, and I'm probably gonna completely miss this quote up, but the Pastor Mika Edmonson, who's married to Dr. Christina Edmondson of Truth’s Table, he has that quote, and I remember talking about it in community group one time, that was saying, “You can't support systems that exploit and oppress your neighbor and also love your neighbor,” like those don’t go together. So yeah, I wish I could find that to better, to better say it. But that idea, right, of people who position themselves in one way, and then turn around and accept situations but expect the people they've objectified to just be grateful for what they have, quote, unquote, or be grateful for what we gave you. Yet, it's like, we're still oppressing you but just be grateful. Yeah. As I brought up white saviorism, it makes me think about white privilege. And I read the NY Times op-ed "An End to the Class vs. Race Debate" by Ralph Richard Banks. Banks wrote about a report that “provides an empirical basis for an economic susceptibility that [B]lack parents like me have sensed: Across generations, we are less likely than whites to rise and when we do, are more likely later to fall." I also read in the Whiteness 101 document put out by Be the Bridge, that, "Privilege—and its opposite, oppression—are related to our identity. As we move through life, this means that parts of our identity give us an advantage, where other parts of our identity leave us at a disadvantage. Social psychologist and theologian [Dr.] Christena Cleveland describes privilege and oppression as ways that society either accommodates us or alienates us. This is not to say that people who are oppressed cannot succeed; it just means they will have to overcome more barriers to achieve their success. This is also not to say that privileged people don’t work hard; it just means they will have more doors opened wide for them, that won’t open as easily for others." So for me, growing up in poverty as someone who is white, I often heard people try to refute white privilege because of our poverty, but looking back, right, I can see that more doors opened wide for me that won't open as easily as others. So would you mind sharing what you are up against as you try to just live your life as someone who does not have white privilege?
Sequana Murray 13:50
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, like, there's just so many things that I want to be able to do and do freely. Like, you know, I want to go get a car, a new car, or carry my car in like to the dealership, and that be a smooth process, or, you know, just trying to get my kids signed up for soccer or dance or something like that. And, you know, just wanting to have a good OB-GYN to go to or, you know, or having a doctor for my kids or, you know, all these things that, you know, I want just as much as, you know, other people would want, but that's difficult in some cases. Like, you know, being like, at one point, I didn't have a car but my kids had these interests in extracurricular activities, and, you know, just not being not having anything close to me where I could go and sign them up and not have to travel far. Or I remember wanting to go vote this year in like the primaries, and the, for our community, it's like right around the corner where we normally go to vote. But during that time, like they moved it to like another place that was like about a mile away. And thankfully, by that point, I had a car, but it just made me think about like other people in my community who didn't have a car and if they'd be able to go. Or, you know, just wanting to find a good doctor for myself. I remember when I was pregnant with my youngest daughter. And for the longest time, like, it took a long time for me to just to even get insurance to be able to go see a doctor. And so by the time I could even get that set up and squared away, like I was, like, eight months in, into the pregnancy, and then I go to this doctor, and he's this white man who looks like he's probably either my age or a little bit younger. And he comes in, he shakes my hand, and first thing that comes out of his mouth is, “We got to get you some more birth control.” And, you know, he didn't read my chart prior to walking in that room to, you know, discover that I had had C-sections, and it was just so surface level, and like, I had issues that I was dealing with and pains, and it's like, I felt so dismissed. And like, then on top of that, like, the way that particular hospital system works, like you didn't stay with the same doctor, they just would pass you around to different doctors, and, you know, being that deep into a pregnancy, and not having any, not having, you know, at least a stable doctor. And, you know, just wondering how it all was going to end up like, you know, just basic things that, you know, maybe more privileged people, like just have, and they don't worry about, they don't think twice about. But me, like it's a struggle, and a juggle just trying to figure this stuff out. And make sure that you know, me and my family are well taken care of. That's been hard. Yeah, it's been hard.
Nicki Pappas 17:42
Yeah, I was gonna say, even though we have Medicaid, like I have Medicaid, even now, I qualify for Medicaid and have it. But yeah, I've never had a doctor say that they need to get me on birth control. So yeah, even just something like that. And I think that maybe people would look at me, and because of the assumptions and stereotypes, right, not assume that I qualify for Medicaid. Right. And so then that's not, but it's like if they knew that I qualify for Medicaid, and then they see that I have three kids so close in age, then they might, right, then the poverty aspect like, right, like being like, “Oh, you qualify for Medicaid, like you shouldn't be having so many kids so that they're not living off the government” would then come into play. But when they look at my white skin, there, that's not even coming into their minds, right? But I feel like for you, and I know, like I've heard more economically privileged Black women encounter the same thing, right, like women who delivered a baby, and they have private insurance. And the people keep asking them, like, “What was your Medicaid information?” They're like, “We have private insurance,” right? So it's like all these, all these assumptions, all these stereotypes because of the color of someone's skin. And so for you, it sounds like, right, you are day in and day out facing discrimination and disadvantages. And then there are the times like voter suppression that you're experiencing or during your pregnancies, like these times that maybe aren't constant, but every once in a while you're hitting some other wall or some other type of disadvantage.
Transition Music
Second Segment
Nicki Pappas 19:53
Well, going back to stereotypes, I was thinking more about the stereotype that people who live in poverty are lazy and don’t want to work, so I wanted to talk with you about how people do want to work and nobody wants to live oppressed in poverty, but I also wanted to talk about the dignity that is restored when people work and the joy that comes with doing work that they love and being compensated for it. So can you speak to this?
Sequana Murray 20:24
Yeah, like, just when it comes to work, like, I 100% agree with you that, you know, like, as far as like poverty and wanting to, like, stay in this condition, like permanently, like, that's definitely not something that me personally, that I aspire to, and I'm not like, saying that, you know, to speak negatively about anyone in my situation, but like, just what my mindset, where it is, like, I absolutely, like want to be able to provide for my family by doing something that I love to do. But like, you know, again, like these, there are these barricades and barriers that I have to like overcome just to be able to do that. Like I've been out of work for a little over two years. And that's not by choice. That's because, like, I have four kids, and I have to figure out childcare or after school care that would synchronize with the hours that I work, and then on top of that, like finding quality childcare for them. And then once that's found, then I have to figure out how I'm going to fund it for like the first three weeks of work that I'm going to be in the hole and you know, with childcare you have to pay up front. So it's like, I can't even get off the starting block because I don't even have like the money to front for childcare, and then not knowing you know where to go. And then if I do happen to qualify for like a voucher program, like, you know, that's limited, and that slims that margin down even more for me to just even get out the gate. And then you have to factor in bills. And, you know, making sure that on top of like paying for childcare, you can like afford to pay, you're making enough money per hour, or with the salary, to be able to pay for childcare and bills, and to have like, you know, a little extra leftover to save or just, you know, for R&R. And, you know, it's hard definitely, for me personally, to figure out where in the world I can even start. But it's not like all of this is in my mind, like, constantly, like constantly trying to look for opportunities out there that could, you know, cater to people like me. I feel like a lot of jobs like because right now, I'm a divorcee, and I feel like a lot of jobs, they're not single parent friendly. They're very demanding and expect you to be there like everybody else and pull your weight and if there's, they'll give you this probation and if your attendance isn't 100% or close to it, like, you know, you can get cut off after that probation period. And it's like, well, I'm certain, you know, there's gonna be things that come up with my kids and just having jobs that don't understand that dynamic to people's lives, like finding a job that is okay with that, or just leaves more grace for people in my situation, that's hard. So like, where I'm at, like, me being unemployed for all this time is not by choice. Like I'm not, I don't want to like be reliant on EBT benefits permanently. I don't want to be reliant on government housing permanently. No, I want to be able to buy my own house and decorate it and fill it with things that me and my kids will enjoy. I don't want to, you know, have a flimsy credit score and not be able to like do things. Like no, like, this isn't something that I aspire to be a part of, like, long term. But, you know, on the other hand, it is helpful for us where we are right now, and I'm grateful that we do have these resources, but at the same time, like you know, I want to be independent. And you know, it's definitely a tightrope that I'm walking on. And so, you know, me in this search for finding some sort of career position. And, you know, and I did during this time, like, you know, put my hopes in music being the thing that could carry me to that place, and it hasn't. When I do find such a position or you know, things take off with my music, like, I will feel like that restoration you're talking about, and that dignity, you know, like filled into me, you know, that, knowing that I'm doing what I love, and I know that it can provide for me and my family. Like, I want that, you know. I do.
Nicki Pappas 25:53
Yeah. And I think, honestly, anyone who doesn't think that people in poverty want to work or if they're, anyone holding to the stereotypes, I think that reveals more about the person holding to the stereotype than it reveals about the one being stereotyped, if that makes sense. Because it's like, yeah, this idea that the person holding a stereotype has to hold onto to, again, justify dehumanization. Yeah. So to dig in a little deeper, not only does nobody want to live oppressed in poverty, but people aren't choosing poverty for themselves and aren't ending up in poverty because of personal decisions when we examine the system that is in place. I remember reading an article by Jemar Tisby that was a response to something Rod Dreher wrote. And Tisby said, "People don’t wake up one day and decide to be poor. Personal decisions certainly affect one’s material wealth, but that’s not the entire story. Throughout U.S. history, those who had economic, political and social power made deliberate decisions that kept people, usually racial and ethnic minorities, in poverty. We could speak of the practice of redlining where the federal government passed down regulations encouraging realtors not to sell houses in affluent areas to African Americans and other people of color. The result was the concentration of poverty in certain areas of a city. The effects of a closed ecosystem of poverty have become evident from the under-funded schools, sub-par hospitals, decrepit housing, and a host of other issues that plague poor neighborhoods. These conditions were imposed not chosen." I also have a shirt from the Equal Justice Initiative that has a quote from Bryan Stevenson written on the back. "The opposite of poverty is not wealth. The opposite of poverty is justice." When I got this shirt, it made me think about Proverbs 13:23, which is in the ESV, "The fallow ground of the poor would yield much food, but it is swept away through injustice." Poverty wouldn't exist if there wasn't injustice. So how does this fact disrupt the comfortable narrative that economically privileged people tell themselves about the poverty of others?
Sequana Murray 28:33
Yeah, like it demands more responsibility from the privileged and or the oppressor to do more. And, you know, like, nobody wants to do more work. Like if you're in a privileged position where you're benefiting and, you know, you don't have to do as much as other people, like, you know, who's gonna want to give that up? Who's gonna want to, you know, roll up their sleeves? So, you know, yeah.
Nicki Pappas 29:13
Yeah, it makes me think about examining the history of the United States more closely shows that it is our history that has led us to the economic disparities we see along racial lines today. And Proverbs 13:23 makes me think about how the oppression of a group of people in order to benefit those who want to secure, like you were saying, more wealth for themselves, like this is nothing new. It was recorded in the bible, it was happening before that, and it has continued to happen. I watched this MSNBC video "This Is Us" with Eddie Glaude, Jr., who said, "America's not unique in its sins as a country. We're not unique in our evils to be honest with you. I think where we may be singular is our refusal to acknowledge them and the legends and myths we tell about our inherent goodness to hide and cover and conceal so that we can maintain a kind of willful ignorance that protects our innocence." For Black people specifically, the history of enslavement to sharecropping to redlining to mass incarceration has resulted in the outcomes we see today and there continues to be racial profiling and police brutality as well as racism in every institution in this country, like even how you were talking about in healthcare. So why do we have to tell the truth about our history as a country?
Sequana Murray 30:41
I mean, I just think about all the time, like, this quote, and I forget who said it. Oh yeah, Micah Bournes, he’s like, “We ain't gonna stop til we all get there.” Or, you know, another quote, and I'm paraphrasing, but just like, you know, we're not free until everybody's free. And, you know, it's important to learn about our history, one, definitely so we don't like make the same mistakes. And two, to erase hypocrisy, that, you know, is embedded in our way of life and our culture. And, you know, like it baffles me that this country, it, I don't see how it can boast in being like the richest country in the world where there’s like so much poverty everywhere, like, I don't, I don't understand it. All these, you know, rich people, all these charities, all these things, and resources that are allegedly being poured into our country. And, you know, every day I wake up, but everything looks the same. Where's it all going? Like, you know, I don't understand it, like. And so, if we're not being truthful with ourselves, like, how are we really helping? Like, who are we really helping? If we're not helping, you know, these people in these communities like, it's like, it's all a front. All it is just a front. And like, we're in way worse shape than we want to admit or realize. I was 26 when I really started to learn about just the history of our country like, just beyond like lynchings and civil rights marches that I learned about in high school. Like, that's all I thought, and slavery, like that’s all I really like chalked up racism to be in America, but you know, lo and behold, oh, like cuz I thought that at that point, like, everything was like just peachy dory. And you know, everybody's getting along. But no, like, my eyes were just opened to just so many things that I just didn't understand before. I didn't even know to look for before or have eyes to really see. And you know, I watched that documentary 13th with you. And oh my gosh, like that was so mind blowing and eye opening, you know, just how much like mass incarceration is tied to slavery. Or, you know, to the point to where, like, you know, slaves were actually put on money, like, because they were literally bringing in the wealth for the country. Like, these are things that I didn't know. And I wish I had known. And, you know, so I go back and think like, well, why don't we know this? Like, why isn't this being taught? Like, why are they not willing to be truthful with themselves? And who is this helping?
Nicki Pappas 34:27
Yeah, I mean, it makes me think, right, Bryan Stevenson with the Equal Justice Initiative, he talks about telling the truth about our history and the power of the narrative and the stories that we pass down. And he says, “I'm not interested in punishing anyone, in punishing America. I want to liberate America,” right, because the truth sets us free.
Transition Music
Third Segment
Nicki Pappas 35:31
Like if we can face the truth, I think about historian Lettie Shumate, who talks about the hypocrisy of history. So that's what I thought about as you brought up hypocrisy as we're talking about this. So there's this hypocrisy in our history that we pass down. And these lies just continue, lies rooted in white supremacy continue. And so in light of all of this injustice, I want to talk with you about reparations. Because Dr. Ibram X. Kendi, I saw where he tweeted one day, like 45 had tweeted out something about the amount of money we're spending on the military. And so Dr. Ibram X. Kendi retweeted it and said, basically, in light of all this money that we're spending on the military, don't ever let this country tell you we don't have enough money to end hunger and to have better education for all children. Like all these things where Black and brown children are suffering and things are underfunded. It's like we have the money, like what you were saying, we're just using it for all these other things and the military being a huge spending or a huge place where money is going, but also the police. Like when I read the book, oh what is it, The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander, and she talked about all the government money going to law enforcement. So it's like, yeah, we have the money. We're just not allocating it in ways that actually get to the roots of problems. So as I was preparing for this episode, I thought about the Truth's Table: Reparations Now series that people can go listen to. I will include it in the show notes. I mean, reparations were paid to enslavers but not to those who were enslaved, as I read in this article "When Slaveowners Got Reparations" by Tera W. Hunter. Reparations were paid in other instances in this country, such as to Japanese Americans. And in the episode with Micah Bournes on the podcast, Micah read his poem "Lament for Mother Tubman." The poem begins with him reading, "The median net worth for non-immigrant African-American households in the Greater Boston region is $8. The household median net worth was $247,500 for whites. - The Color of Wealth in Boston: A 2015 report by the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston, Duke University, and the New School." Micah talked about how he is mad about right now. He is mad about $8. He also talked about how white families have been able to acquire wealth and pass it down, so that even if Black people started receiving equal compensation today, there are centuries where they weren't, so they would still be behind. What do you think reparations should look like?
Sequana Murray 38:41
I definitely think a good start would be with education and, you know, what we're learning in our history books and what we're teaching children about just our history and undoing like all of that, first and foremost. And, you know, also, you know, reallocating funds like in these different communities. So the way that education is, the quality of education is equal amongst everyone. And then I think about just releasing and expunging criminal records of people who have offenses, you know, of things that have now been legalized like, you know, marijuana and things like that. I feel like there definitely needs to be like a mass like exodus of people in those situations, restoring voting rights to those who have, you know, who have been released but they have felonies. Like giving them those rights back. And, you know, either abolishing or just fixing the credit system to where it's more fair for people to be able to like purchase a home or purchase a car or get a credit card. Like, I feel like, you know, that would be very helpful. I'm totally down with just giving Black people this lump sum of money.
Nicki Pappas 40:36
Say it again.
Sequana Murray 40:38
A lump sum of money. Of undefined amounts to just, you know, give us what we're owed from, from way back, you know, when the slaves were released and freed, like, you know, and more on top of that. Now, there's just so many things. So so many things like, I feel like America could do and definitely should do. I feel like it's just been overdue. And I'm glad that these conversations are being had and taken more seriously, just in the political realm. And my hopes are definitely that, you know, the ball can continue to get rolling, and we can see some more tangible results with that.
Nicki Pappas 41:35
For sure, yeah, I was thinking the idea of, yeah, just like, cut a check to Black people. And I was at this Charlotte Justice Conference in 2019, maybe, and there was a session on reparations. And the guy took questions at the end. And this white man really asked, you know, he talked about, essentially, “How would we make sure that they, the recipients, are spending it well, or doing like good things with it?” And I was just like, “Oh, dear, like, you don't even hear this overseer,” right. There's this “I have to be the big brother and make sure you're doing it right.” It's like, you don't, you actually don't get to have an opinion about how someone is spending their money. Like, that's not ours to have. That's not my opinion to be able to have. And I know I once thought like that man did. But when I heard him say that, right, it's like, “Wow, he's really saying this publicly.” Because that's something I've learned about myself is there's a lot of things that I maybe never would have said publicly, but I believed them but still having that belief is damaging, right, because of how I then operate towards others. But hearing him say it out loud, right, it's like, “Oh, wow, you don't even hear how wrong it is. And you're just out here saying that,” when, again, that infringes on people's autonomy and agency. It's like if the government cuts someone a check and is like, “This is your reparations,” then they get to spend it and do whatever they want to with it, period. It's their money that they're owed. So yeah, yeah. Well, how would you know that the United States has confronted our history and really repaired the damage actively and intentionally carried out against those who are oppressed, particularly against Black people?
Sequana Murray 43:52
I think the short answer to that is when I see a check, then I will know that y’all are taking it seriously.
Nicki Pappas 44:01
Yeah. I love that. Because even in that Truth’s Table: Reparations Now series, I can't remember which episode it was, but they talked about there all these symbolic gestures. But how about an actual check? Talks have been going on for a while with the HR 40 bill about reparations for African Americans. So it's like, yeah, that's something that we can be writing and calling legislators about and really trying to get them to take it more seriously because it needs to happen.
Sequana Murray 44:47
Yeah, like now that Democrats have control of the Senate, do you think that like there'll be more or at least a higher chance of that happening, maybe just, or at least the ball like rolling really fast or more fast on that?
Nicki Pappas 45:06
Oh, man, that's such a tough question because what I'm thinking is that even progressive white people still have always been really problematic and racist, right. Like we still upheld white supremacy. So I don't know, I would hope that there'd be more of a softness, more of a wanting to move things towards true equity in reparations, but I don't know, I just think that even the most progressive on the outside people, like I remember Lettie Shumate talking about that, like the, like how dangerous liberal white people are, because they think they're not part of the problem, you know. I mean, even when you look back right at, at slavery, and when enslaved people were freed, or when abolitionists, like white abolitionists, were wanting slaves to be freed, they weren't wanting slaves to be equal, you know, it wasn't a, “We want them freed, and then they should have all the same rights that we have,” like a lot of times it was, “We want them free, because we think that this is wrong, but we still don't think they're as human as we are.” So I just, I see still a lot of vestiges of that in even the most progressive white people.
Sequana Murray 46:34
Wow. Wow.
Nicki Pappas 46:38
So. But I don't know, we can hope, right, and we can write our senators, and we can, you know, we can put the pressure because they're gonna do what the people who have elected them pressure them to do, right. And that's even something with the election of President Elect Joe Biden and Vice President Elect Kamala Harris.
Both 47:02
Whoo.
Nicki Pappas 47:04
Yeah, with their election, I remember Lettie talking about that as well. It was this idea of who do, we who do we have more chance of being able to hold accountable, right, like, that's what the lens you need to use. And obviously, it is not 45, like, you know, he has shown that there's no holding him accountable period. You know, even as we are recording this, the night we're recording this, right, is the night that the sedition and insurrection is happening in DC. So, he has shown his colors, and he's been showing his colors, and people have been telling us, and we're seeing the fruit of that now. So yeah, it's like there was never gonna be any holding him accountable. But at least with, you know, Biden and Harris, there can hopefully be more chance of holding them accountable, as well as some of the new people who have been elected to Congress. So yeah, we can hope.
Sequana Murray 48:08
Yes, yes, absolutely.
Nicki Pappas 48:10
And not just hope we can, like I said, have the actions to go with it, as well.
Sequana Murray 48:15
Right.
Nicki Pappas 48:16
Yeah. Yeah, so actually, I read this book The Half Has Never Been Told: Slavery and the Making of American Capitalism by Edward Baptist, and I thought about a tweet from Nikole Hannah-Jones from December 27th where she was addressing white people who complain about not getting to use racist slurs, and she ended the thread by asking, "Why do you need this so badly?" The context is different, but it made me wonder for those who cling so tightly to capitalism, what would they say if asked, "Who are you without capitalism? Who are you without exploiting or profiting or benefiting from the exploitation of people who live in poverty, who only live in poverty because of injustice?" as we’ve talked about. And I often think about Angela Davis and other activists who opposed capitalism in the past and who currently oppose capitalism because there has to be a better way, but as a nation, we won't even try something different. So how do you think our economic system should change in order to actually have a more just and equitable system?
Sequana Murray 49:35
I'm definitely for free college or just, you know, affordable college, you know. I think that's a good start. Just so that, you know, those who aren't able to, you know, pay off those student loans, or who wouldn't have the capability of doing such a thing, you know, can start, you know, their adulthood without that ball and chain around their ankles, and you know, that can impact credit and being able to, like, just do more things. I feel like, you know, that's a good start or at least, you know, that's one one thing that can be done.
Nicki Pappas 50:21
Yeah, what do you think about a more socialist or quote communist system, because I know that that has been used to disparage people and paint them really negatively as unpatriotic, un-american, you know, in this country, if they hold to that kind of economic system.
Sequana Murray 50:53
Well, there are some good principles that I feel like are upheld, that can be gleaned from like a more socialist slash communist way of life. I just think about like, you know, just people like, just really just you know sharing the wealth like, and redistributing it, you know, to where people can just, like, just live and not, you know, be on the streets. Like, I feel like there's enough wealth in this country, between all of us, where, you know, as you mentioned before, like, we, we know everybody can get out of poverty, at least have a roof under their head, or over their heads, sorry, a roof over their head, and you know, I feel like, you know, there's definitely ways we can redistribute wealth in this country, to, you know, just have people just be safe. And at least have opportunity to have a good start with life or just, you know, wherever they are in our lives to just be able to start fresh or yeah, so I mean, I don't know everything about communism or socialism, but I do know that I like it way better than capitalism. I don't think it's as scary as a lot of conservatives tend to make it out to be. Yeah.
Nicki Pappas 52:51
Yeah. And I think the more I learn about this, the history here, and capitalism, the more I realize, like, oh, labeling those who dissent from capitalism as communists and dangerous and even terrorists, like Angela Davis was labeled. It's like, naming people as that and using communism, or saying that they're Marxist or any of those disparaging things like is nothing new. That too, is historical, and has been used to discredit movements, you know, and so, like learning about that is really interesting. And then I actually just thought about this, and I cannot remember who said it. But I remember reading something where someone pointed out that the reason conservatives, and a lot of white people, like they believe the reason that they are so resistant to a redistribution of wealth is because they know the recipients of that, or in their minds they're seeing the recipients of that, as Black and brown people, and they don't deem them worthy of receiving it. And that ties back into all the stereotypes that we talked about at the beginning, that you shed light on. So thank you for sharing your insights on all that. I do really appreciate it.
Transition Music
Fourth Segment
Nicki Pappas 54:34
So when we were planning out what to discuss in this episode you brought up that you would like to share about your personal life and the relationship changes in your life the past quarter, so I just want to open it up to let you share whatever you want to share here. And then would love to also hear what is in store for you creatively.
Sequana Murray 54:55
Okay, so yeah, when you last talked to me, I was recently divorced. And just, you know, just as far as like that and relationships go, yeah, I've been back out on the dating scene. And I started, like, because of COVID like, I was using dating apps. And so I started using this app called Bumble. And I want to say, yeah, in July of 2020, that's when I met this fellow named Mike. And, like, we hit it off, like, really, from like the first conversation and things have been like, really good. We're still together. Things are going great and feeling good, feeling good, feeling great. Things are going well with him and I, and oh my gosh, like we match in almost like everything. It's so crazy. He’s a really amazing person and is very loving and kind and sweet and empathetic, and, like, so like you've noticed on like Facebook and IG and Twitter, like we've just been, like, all over each other with all the love notes and stuff, like, but he's just really been a blessing in our life. And this is the complete opposite of just what I like got myself out of with my marriage, and I just see that as just a godsend. Like the end of 2019, I picked a word for 2020, and that word was blossoming. And it just really felt like just last year, like just one thing after the other, like God was just blossoming like me and my situation like externally, like, even with finances, like things, you know, really picked up speed, and we were able to get a car and you know, get some stability with bills. And then like, middle of the year, like, just when I thought God was done, then he sends this like amazing person in my life. And, you know, things were just like so just blissful. And like, I'm just super grateful for that, like that our relationship definitely has helped me just get through like that last quarter of the year, which was kind of hard with like the kids starting school and going into like virtual school, and me not knowing how I was gonna like work all that out. And just other things like, so, yeah, relationally, things like that, it's been like, it went from like negative 100 to like 1000 on a scale.
Nicki Pappas 58:32
Yeah. Well even, yeah, I can just hear how happy you are. But also see in the stuff you post and I, when you shared from the episode that you were on in season one, and seeing Mike share about your episode, and to accept you and celebrate you in your queer identity.
Sequana Murray 58:56
Yeah, that’s one thing I really love about him, like he loves all of me.
Nicki 59:00
Well, I'm so happy for you, and you deserve all the happiness and every good thing.
Sequana Murray 59:08
Thank you.
Nicki Pappas 59:10
Well, to wrap up here, could you talk about the challenges you faced in the music industry and where things stand for you regarding your music?
Sequana Murray 59:20
Yeah, so yeah, I, so I shared last episode I started writing in 2016, songs, and just over, like from then until now, like, I have amassed enough songs and poems to put on an album or EP, at the very least, and I've just been pushing like ever since then to get things recorded and produced and polished and marketed and put in front of important people. And it's, that's definitely been a very, very uphill climb, just trying to find good producers, trying to find and network with people who have the ability to put me like either on the radio or just like just in a more visible position as an artist. And, you know, making sure that there are trustworthy people who, you know, aren't just trying to, like, make money off for me. And it's been really hard. Like, I've run into people who want me to sign these contracts where they tell me one thing, like, “Oh, you’re gonna get like a signing bonus of X amount of money,” then you go read the paperwork, and it's like 10% of that. And then like, you're tied to that contract for an indefinite amount of time. Or, you know, just other people like that who try to take advantage of me in other ways. Like one guy, he seemed, you know, legit, like, he's like, “Yeah, I'm going to set you up and put, I want to, I want you to be able to perform in different venues. And here, here, here. I'm a good manager.” And he said that he wanted to take over my website, and basically have everything funneled through him. And his bargaining chip was, “Well, just to let you know that I'm serious, I'll give you $100.” And I’m like, “If you don’t go sit somewhere down. Like get somewhere and sit down.” Like, no. So I shut the door quick on that.
Nicki Pappas 1:01:48
Like $100 would get you what, groceries for one week? Like that's nothing.
Sequana Murray 1:01:54
With four kids? Groceries for three days.
Nicki Pappas 1:01:56
For two days, yeah.
Sequana Murray 1:01:59
Yeah. So it's been hard. I did, like I have been able to, like, get my music like, in front of like executives, at like, places like Epic Records and Sony and Columbia and Atlanta, Atlantic Records. But even like, even then, like, once it gets to their door, like, a lot of times with them, it'll be a numbers game. It'll, they'll say, “Well, oh, you're so like, talented. And like, you know, we could easily see you in front of like, like major records, record labels, but you know, you don't have enough followers on IG, or, you know, you don't have enough streams.” And my mind is just thinking, “Well, isn't this supposed to be talent based?” And, you know, if so, like, if I personally don't have the resources to elevate myself in a way that I have, after exhausting all of the things that I've exhausted to get where I am, don't y’all have the resources, like, aren't y’all able to, like just help with artists’ development. Isn’t that your job? Like, just in my mind, like, thinking these things. And just time after time after time, they're telling me the same thing. And I'm like, if y'all have all arrived to the same conclusion, like, why not help and put me in places where, you know, I can really just get exposure. And, you know, at the end of the day, this is really just all about me just trying to help people like I, my music is here, like, I believe to just heal people and, you know, help give exposure to topics that isn't getting talked about. And I feel like right now, at least I'm the only one talking about certain things. And I'm like, look like I'm not just here just to make a buck, like I'm here to help people. And why aren't y’all willing to help? So it's just been really hard just hearing that over and over again, all last year, and a little bit of 2019, you know,, because these things, they cost money, time and you know, you get a song together and you're like, “Okay, this is going to be the one,” and then you submit it and then it’s just the same same wall you keep hitting. And, you know, towards the end of last year, I just, I just got tired of that. As big as my ambitions were to, you know, to want to be able to help people and talk about these things and really, you know, just do a lot, not only for myself, but to also like to help other artists like who are in my same position, like who don't have opportunities to. Like, as big as my ambitions were like, I just felt like I’m tired. My finances are tired. My spirit is tired. I am woefully discouraged. And I think I need to take a break. So I did. I gave myself until the end of October. And I was like, “Okay, if I don't, you know, flip this thing by then, then I’m just gonna hang it up.” And October came, the end of October came, and, you know, I was in the same spot, and I decided to let it go. But, you know, what's interesting is, I think, like, maybe it was three days ago. So between then and like three days ago, like, you know, I've just been real, like, chill, with putting music out and I promoted myself like I normally would. And then, you know, one day, like, I just was having a really, really horrible day. And I played one of my songs, I played my intro song, and then, and I was, I was rapping and singing with it. And it just, it lifted me out of that hole I was in. And I kind of took that as, you know, a sign from God that, “You know what? I'm not done with you? Do you not see, like, the power that is in this music to heal even yourself, to help yourself? Like, what were you thinking? Like, pick up your pen, like, pick up your cross, you know, and keep going.” And so that's, so now I'm in a place where, like, yeah, I think I want to keep going, I think I want to try again. Like, I don't know how, like, I'm gonna, like, get to where I feel like God's leading me, but I want to try again. You know, trust that God is gonna get me there, when he wants me there. And however he feels his best. And just trust in that. So that's, yeah, that's where I'm at. Yeah.
Nicki Pappas 1:07:53
Well, do you have anything going on for the future, or any projects that you're working on that you could talk about?
Sequana Murray 1:08:01
Well, there is a song that me and Mike, we did together. And it's called “Dreams,” and we have it, we've already recorded it and mixed it and basically just need to put it out there. So you all can definitely be looking out for that. And it'll be available on all streaming services. But you know, the song really talking about, like, how we came together, and you know, our story. So there's that. And then I'm going to try to finish Bandys Notebook, Volume One. And there’s this like, one or two more songs I want to get produced. And then I'm going to try to get it all put together and get that put out there. And other than that, just trying to like brainstorm for like music videos and ideas that I have. I also, you can also catch me, like me and Mike, we have a IG that's called Vision and Flow. Cause Mike, he's a creative as well, like he does photography and videography. And so we've mushed our talents together there and we put out like skits and just videos talking about our relationship, we're just talking about relationships in general, and we put out gaming videos, so we have like stuff, content coming from that outlet as well. So everyone can catch me on there. When I'm not in Bandy mode, I'll be in Flow mode. So there's a lot going on as well.
Nicki Pappas 1:09:55
Yeah, with your Bandys Notebook, Volume One, is that what you had a Kickstarter for before?
Sequana Murray 1:10:05
Yes, yes.
Nicki Pappas 1:10:06
So would you consider doing that again?
Sequana Murray 1:10:11
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Nicki Pappas 1:10:14
Well, if you do, then I could include that in the show notes for this episode. If, yeah, if you go that route so that people will be able to support after listening.
Sequana Murray 1:10:26
Yeah, for sure. I can definitely, definitely provide that.
Nicki Pappas 1:10:32
Yeah. Well, Sequana, in light of all the work that you've done, and everything you've created, plus what you're currently creating, working on, and what you will create in the future, what is your hope for your work?
Sequana Murray 1:10:50
My hope is just that it would get to the right people, that it would find its audience. That's been my biggest struggle. And honestly, at this point, it doesn't matter to me like how big or small the audience is or that God intended it to be. I just, I just want to find them. Like if it’s 10 people, if it's a million people, like I just need, my hope is that it can find the right people to help the right people, because that's really what this is about. I just want to help people, you know, share my life experiences and share what's helped me so that they can be helped so that the world can be a better place.
Nicki Pappas 1:11:35
Yeah, I love that. Well, Sequana, thank you for taking the time to talk with me about the realities of poverty, as well as the necessity of reparations. And I'm just so grateful for this time together.
Sequana Murray 1:11:50
Absolutely. Thanks for inviting me again. I loved it.
Transition Music
Nicki Pappas 1:12:01
Wow, I absolutely loved this conversation. It was such a gift to talk with Sequana and learn from her. As a reminder, the music from today’s episode was “Design” by Bandy featuring Nicki Pappas, and the full song will close out the episode. You can stream, purchase, and download Bandy’s music at bandy17.bandcamp.com. If you like what you heard today, share it with a friend. I really think that little by little, person by person, we can broaden the narrative. In addition, make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode. Then, rate and review to help others find the show. I also want to thank Jordan Lukens for his help with editing and Danielle Bolin for creating the episode graphic. You can access the Broadening the Narrative blog and transcripts for podcast episodes as they become available by visiting broadeningthenarrative.blogspot.com. You can find Broadening the Narrative on Instagram @broadeningthenarrative, on Twitter @broadnarrative, and on Facebook at facebook.com/groups/broadeningthenarrative. Come back next week for an amazing episode with author Megan Wooding about the church and purity culture. Grace and peace, friends.
Outro Music
“Design” by Bandy featuring Nicki Pappas
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