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In this episode of Broadening the Narrative, I shared reasons why we must value the voices of children and youth. When the voices of children and youth are valued, particularly those of marginalized children and youth, we can implement their ideas to usher in a world of peace, equity, and true justice. The guest I spoke with was my oldest kiddo J. J offered advice, we talked about feelings, and J sang a few songs. It was such a special conversation for me. I hope that if you know and love me you can engage with the Broadening the Narrative blog, social media accounts, and podcast, as well as any recommended resources. Then, you can share with people who know and love you, and little by little, person by person, we can broaden the narrative.
4 clock ticks
“It’s past time to broaden the narrative” (said by Sequana Murray)
Intro Music
Introduction: Hello and welcome to another episode of Broadening the Narrative. This is a podcast where I talk to some of my favorite people who have broadened the narrative for me. I'm your host, Nicki Pappas, and I'm so glad you're here.
Transition Music
First Segment
Nicki: On today's episode, I am joined by a very special guest, my [kiddo J]. We will be hearing from J shortly. Before I play my conversation with J, I just want to say that J is one of my favorite people because J remembers details about others that make them feel special. J uses the longevity of J's memory to love others well. I also wanted to explain why I asked J to come onto the podcast. The voices and ideas of children and youth are dismissed continually, whether that’s by politicians because they can’t vote or the adults that think they know better, which certainly could be true in some cases, but I’ve noticed a pattern in my own life of saying no to my kids not because I know better but because I don’t want to be inconvenienced.
A few years ago, I read an article titled “Your Child Is Your Neighbor” by Jen Wilkin. I regret to say that the source of where I read this was on The Gospel Coalition. Though I no longer align with much of what is elevated within TGC, I am grateful for the ways I was transformed shortly after becoming a mother and reading this article by Jen Wilkin. Wilkin wrote, “If you asked me the single-most important insight that has shaped my parenting, it would be this: Children are people...If you asked me the single-most misleading statement I’ve heard with regard to parenting, it would be this: The Bible is relatively silent on the topic of parenting. On the surface, this statement appears true...Until we remember that children are people. Because if children are people, then they are also our neighbors. This means that every scriptural imperative that speaks to loving our neighbor as we love ourselves suddenly comes to bear on how we parent. Every command to love preferentially at great cost, with great effort, and with godly wisdom becomes...a command to love the people under my own roof, no matter how small. If children are people, then our own children are our very closest neighbors. No other neighbor lives closer or needs our self-sacrificing love more. Suddenly, a great deal of the Bible is not silent at all on the topic of parenting... Recognizing my children as my neighbors has freed me up to enjoy them as people rather than to resent them as laundry-generating, food-ingesting, mess-making, fit-throwing financial obligations...When we treasure our children as our neighbors, we remove from our discipline any hint of condemnation, shame, or contempt. We alter our language to communicate love and value, even when we must speak words of correction.” So yeah, it seems simple, but it radically changed the way I viewed children.
The narrative I had been taught about children included that they were to be seen and not heard. Pastors taught that they were to be controlled because they weren’t mature enough to be trusted to make their own decisions. And even the more benevolent evangelical teaching that emphasized removing shame to get to a child’s heart instead of focusing on altering outward behavior still commanded that spanking should be part of the disciplinary process when appropriate. Well, rather than seeing children as less than full humans for me to dominate, and rather than seeing myself as the authority figure that they must acquiesce to, I began to see children as truly equal to adults. When I see the children around me as my equals, I treat them with dignity, and I respect their boundaries, independence, and bodily autonomy. As a mom, I am teaching my kids the power of no. I don’t withdraw love from them when they tell me no. I am helping them establish healthy boundaries for themselves, with me, and with others and giving them opportunities to practice in safe community. These are principles that anyone who works with children and youth can apply to their relationships.
On June 22nd, 2020, my friend Lisa reposted a graphic from @the_female_lead about a mom supporting her daughter’s personal space when people try to hug her and the daughter says no. Lisa captioned it, “THIS. ALL DAY. EVEN, and maybe ESPECIALLY with relatives. Practice this with everyone. Otherwise your girls and boys grow up thinking they don't have power over their bodies and who touches them. When rough housing or tickle playing with them, when they say ‘no’ or ‘stop’ honor that immediately. They will learn that ‘no’ means ‘no.’ When rubbing on the sunblock or lotion, ask their permission to touch or take the time and allow the option for them to do it themselves...Talk to them and lead by example. They are not puppets but little humans who deserve to learn what healthy boundaries are and how to have them.” And I couldn’t have said it better myself.
I read a blog post on patheos.com by Libby Anne titled “The Scandal of Pastor John Ortberg and Menlo Church.” Referencing an article she authored in the past, she wrote, “In it, I respond to an article in a well-read evangelical magazine that contended that child protection measures have no place in evangelical churches. The author argued that measures designed to protect children from sexual abuse get in the way of hugging children as Jesus did. There has been a lot of opposition in evangelical circles to putting child protection measures in place in churches...Why can’t these churches take responsible steps in the first place? For one thing, there’s a belief that Christians are de facto safe people. Sexual abuse is something that happens somewhere else. It’s what ungodly, worldly people do! Add to that a firm belief in hierarchy—children’s voices are automatically discounted, and (white, male) Christian adults are automatically believed. Add to that a belief in forgiveness for sin that frequently puts ‘repentant’ abusers back in positions of power.” If you are unfamiliar with the situation at Menlo Church, Daniel Laverly, son of John Ortberg, posted a Twitter thread on June 28th, 2020 about this. Laverly tweeted, “In November of last year, I reported to the Elders of Menlo Church that their senior pastor, John Ortberg, had conspired in secret to provide a person experiencing compulsive sexual feelings towards children with unsupervised access to young people through youth groups. At that time, it was my hope that the Menlo Elders would conduct a confidential and thorough investigation of the report, and make such arrangements as were necessary to protect the community. In January, Menlo Church published the broad outlines of their investigation. In my opinion, it was not a thorough one. The investigator did not, for example, interview a number of the key witnesses, nor do I believe did they investigate church-related work on international trips. Although Ortberg returned to the pulpit acknowledging vague regret, neither he nor the church ever made clear what, exactly, they thought he had done wrong. Parishioners were not given the full story of Ortberg’s relationship to this volunteer, or his interest in keeping their strategy a secret...On November 15, 2019 a member of the congregation at Menlo Church disclosed to me that for most of their life, they had experienced obsessive sexual feelings about young children. This person further disclosed that they had sought out unsupervised volunteer positions with children as a method of treating this obsession, including volunteer work at Menlo Church as well as volunteer work that involves overnight travel with minors. Lastly, this person disclosed that although they had never spoken to a therapist about this plan, they had shared it with John and Nancy Ortberg in July 2018. John Ortberg has continually encouraged this person in their pursuit of unsupervised work with children...The volunteer was my brother, John Ortberg III. When we last spoke, he admitted to seeking out unsupervised contact with children (including overnight travel) for well over a decade. I believe his unique relationship to my father, John Ortberg Jr., is the sole reason why John Jr. went out of his way to protect his secret and facilitate his continued contact with children. During the conversation where he admitted his sexual obsession towards children, John III repeatedly described his work with children as the most important thing in his life, and described his feelings for the children in his care over the years in deeply romantic terms...I do not wish to punish John Ortberg III for a condition he cannot control. However, he can control whether he spends time alone with children he desires sexually.
He colluded in a desperately unsafe conspiracy on the grounds of a discredited belief—seemingly derived from the ‘Virtuous Pedophile’ movement, whose values both he and my father defended to me—that close, unmonitored contact with children is therapeutic for pedophiles.” And you can read more of that Twitter thread if you go to Daniel Laverly’s Twitter account. So this is far too common in our churches and must change. As Libby Anne wrote in the beginning of the blog post, a firm belief in hierarchy results in children’s voices being automatically discounted, and Christian adults, particularly white males, being automatically believed. So protecting children and youth from predatory people is another reason why we must value their voices and make them feel safe to come forward if someone does abuse them or makes them uncomfortable.
I also wanted to talk about valuing the voices of children and youth because there's always talk about how children and youth are our future but there is little investment in children and youth who are parts of marginalized groups. Regarding racial segregation, you can visit propublica.org to read articles that were a part of ProPublica’s Segregation Now series. And in “The Disturbing History of the Suburbs,” Season 1 Episode 43 of Adam Ruins Everything, Nikole Hannah-Jones explained, “People tend to think of segregation as an archaic term for a Jim Crow policy that led to the Civil Rights Movement. But the truth is that Black children are more segregated in schools now than in any time since the 1970s.”
On June 9th, 2020, Senator Kamala Harris tweeted:
“1.7 million students have police in their school but no counselor.
3 million have police but no nurse.
6 million have police but no psychologist.
10 million have police but no social worker.
We need systemic change—now.”
The data Senator Kamala Harris cited was from the American Civil Liberties Union report “Cops and No Counselors: How the Lack of School Mental Health Staff is Harming Students.” So if you visit the ACLU site, you can read, “School districts have shown a near obsession with ‘hardening’ schools despite federal data revealing that the real crisis of schools isn’t violence, but a broad failure to hire enough support staff to serve students’ mental health needs...The consequences for these funding decisions fall on the most vulnerable students. Historically marginalized students — such as students of color — often have to attend schools with fewer resources and supports, and teachers are often not equipped to deal with the special needs of children with disabilities. When there are no other support staff to address behavioral problems, some teachers request help from law enforcement. This results in an increased criminalization of school children: We found that schools with police reported 3.5 times as many arrests as schools without police. As a result, students with disabilities and students of color are frequently sent into the criminal system.”
And in the Report Executive Summary I read:
“Today’s school children are experiencing record levels of depression and anxiety, alongside multiple forms of trauma. According to the [CDC], the suicide rate among children ages 10 to 17 increased by 70 percent between 2006 and 2016. Approximately 72 percent of children in the United States will have experienced at least one major stressful event—such as witnessing violence, experiencing abuse, or experiencing the loss of a loved one—before the age of 18.”
“-Students with disabilities were arrested at a rate 2.9 times that of students without disabilities. In some states, they were 10 times as likely to be arrested than their counterparts.
-Black students were arrested at a rate 3 times that of white students. In some states, they were 8 times as likely to be arrested.
-Pacific Islander/Native Hawaiian and Native American students were arrested at a rate 2 times that of white students.
-Latinx students were arrested at a rate 1.3 times that of white students.
-Black girls made up 16 percent of the female student population but were 39 percent of girls
arrested in school. Black girls were arrested at a rate 4 times that of white girls. In North Carolina, Iowa, and Michigan, Black girls were more than 8 times as likely to be arrested than white girls.
-Native American girls had a school arrest rate 3.5 times that of white girls. Native American girls were 12 percent of girls in Montana but were 62 percent of female arrests in that state.
-Black and Latino boys with disabilities were 3 percent of students but were 12 percent of school arrests.”
Another part of the report I think is important pertains to LGBTQ students. “Prior research indicates that lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and queer students are at higher risk of school policing than general student population and are overrepresented in both school disciplinary incidents and in the juvenile justice system - and those risks are even greater for Black, Native American, and Latinx LGBTQ youth and LGBTQ students with disabilities.” It is past time to invest in the flourishing of these children and youth to ensure all children and youth have not only equal opportunities but equal access to all they need to be prepared for opportunities.
I also read somewhere that you let kids know that their voices matter by listening to them. If anyone knows who I can attribute this to, please let me know. So rather than just talking about valuing the voices of children, I wanted to provide myself with an opportunity to actually sit down with J and demonstrate that I value J's voice.
J has been excited about recording this episode with me, and I did ask J's permission to post it. This will be available to listen to unless J says that J wants it taken down, which J could decide one day, and I want to honor J and J's privacy and J's requests as a person. Also, you may hear background noises as we are recording at home, and J is shuffling around while we are sitting at the kitchen table. May each child and youth that comes to me feel seen and safe, validated and valued. There is much that I and other adults, particularly those in more privileged positions, can learn from the ways children and youth live and love. They have voices and ideas we need to hear. Now, I will play what you came here for. I hope you enjoy my conversation with J.
Second Segment
Transition Music
Nicki: Alright, thanks for joining me to have a conversation for Broadening the Narrative podcast. Can you tell the listeners a little about yourself?
J: My favorite animal’s a cheetah, and I’m gonna go to Kindergarten. My favorite color of the rainbow is blue, and I like being the oldest because I go to school, and I’ve usually been going to school at home, doing school at home, and I usually do some fun stuff, and sometimes at home I do some fun activities, and we already passed my sibling’s birthday.
Nicki: Yeah. You said that you like being the oldest, so can you tell us what you like about being the oldest, or you mentioned being older.
J: Um, about going to school. I already told you that.
(laughter)
Nicki: Oh ok. Is there anything else you’d like to share?
J: No thanks. (noises from J) I just wanted to say that.
Nicki: What can adults learn from kids?
J: To be nicer to them.
Nicki: What do you think people should do when we make mistakes that hurt other people?
J: Apologize and make things right.
Nicki: What do you think people should do when they hurt other people on purpose?
J: Apologize and make things right.
Nicki: They still should apologize and make things right, huh, either way. Why is it important to ask how you can make things right?
J: I do not remember.
Nicki: You can’t remember. We talk about how you want to -
(J hiccups)
(laughter)
Nicki: - make the relationship right. You have the hiccups? You want to make the relationship right with the person that you’ve harmed, and they can tell you how to best do that, can’t they?
J: Ok.
Nicki: Ok, this next question I wanted to ask you is what do you want the world to be like?
J: Um, that every animal’s a cheetah.
Nicki: That every animal’s a cheetah. Ok well what about regarding what we’re talking about with adults and kids? What do you want the world to be like?
J: Them be nicer.
Nicki: Who be nicer?
J: The grown-ups.
Nicki: The grown-ups. You want a world where grown-ups are nicer? And how can they show that they’re nice? What can they do to show they’re nice?
J: Be nicer.
Nicki: Be nicer. Could they listen to kids?
J: Yeah.
Nicki: Yeah. Why should adults listen to kids?
J: So that you don’t make them sad.
Nicki: So you don’t make the kids sad.
J: Yeah.
Nicki: Yeah. Well this next question I wanted to ask you is how have you been feeling during the COVID-19 coronavirus pandemic?
J: Sad.
Nicki: You’ve been sad. Why have you been sad?
J: Because I haven’t seen all my friends.
Nicki: Yeah, it’s hard not to see your friends, huh?
J: Yeah.
Nicki: Yeah, and you were in school when this all happened, so you haven’t seen those friends. I know. That’s hard. Is it easy or hard for you to talk about your feelings?
J: Both.
Nicki: Both. Sometimes easy, sometimes hard. Yeah. Do you remember when we watched the Cosmic Kids yoga video about your feelings being fish and you being the pond? You remember that? We heard in the video about how sometimes one fish wants to take over the whole pond, but you can keep that from happening. And you’ve also learned a lot from watching Daniel Tiger, haven’t you?
J: Mm-hmm.
Nicki: So what helps when you are angry? What has Daniel Tiger taught you about that?
J: If you feel so mad that you want to roar, just take a deep breath (J takes a deep breath), and count to four. One, two, three, four.
Nicki: And what helps you when you feel sad? What did he teach you?
J: This. It’s okay to feel sad sometimes, little by little, you’ll feel better again.
Nicki: Ah, I like that. Well, what helps when you feel afraid? What’s something you can sing to yourself?
J: When you’re scared, close your eyes and think of something happy.
Nicki: Uh-huh. And there was another one, too.
J: See what it is, you might feel better.
Nicki: Yeah. Both of those are good, huh. So it helps to remember that your emotions aren’t bad and that they are trying to protect you, even if they go about it in ways that aren’t good for you. But since you’re the pond, you can take care of the fish swimming around in you. What is one thing you think kids can do to make the world better?
J: Kids?
Nicki: Uh-huh.
J: Um, be mean. I mean nice.
Nicki: Be nice.
J: Well the first time, I said, “Be mean” -
(laughter)
J: - on accident.
Nicki: Yeah. How can adults help kids to make the world better?
J: Um, by telling them something they can remember a lot of times, so that they remember that just when they’re about to be mean, they can start remembering that.
Nicki: Is there anything else you’d like to share?
J: No thanks.
Nicki: No thanks. Well, thank you so much for coming onto the podcast, J. I really appreciate you talking with me.
J: I appreciate me talking with you.
Nicki: You appreciate you talking with me. Alright, well, I love you, buddy.
J: I love you, too.
Transition Music
Nicki: My hope for others as the narrative around valuing the voices of children and youth is broadened for me is that we as a global community would validate the voices of the most marginalized children and youth and implement their ideas in order to usher in a world of peace, equity, and true justice. To bring this hope to fruition, I will live and vote to value the voices of every child and youth, not just white, middle-class children who don’t have disabilities, so that the challenges faced by all children and youth as well as challenges unique to children and youth who are poor, who are Black, Brown, Indigenous, Asian, and Pacific Islander children and youth of color, who are living with disabilities, who have incarcerated loved ones, who are in the LGBTQIA community, who have been traumatized by gun violence, who are harmed by environmental racism, who are directly being affected by climate change, who are fleeing war as refugees, and many more are addressed with direction from those who are most impacted.
Transition Music
Closing: I want to thank Sequana Murray for the voice clip she sent to me for the episode intro. You can purchase her music on Bandcamp at bandy17.bandcamp.com. Her music is available on most streaming services under the name Bandy. I also want to thank Jordan Lukens for his help with editing and Danielle Bolin for creating the episode graphic. Please subscribe and review the show, but only if you’re planning on leaving a 5-star review. Otherwise, you can just skip this part. You can access the Broadening the Narrative blog by visiting broadeningthenarrative.blogspot.com, and you can find the Broadening the Narrative page on Instagram by searching for @broadeningthenarrative and on Twitter by searching for @broadnarrative. I hope that if you know and love me you can engage with the Broadening the Narrative blog, social media accounts, and podcast, as well as any recommended resources. Then, you can share with people who know and love you, and little by little, person by person, we can broaden the narrative. Grace and peace, friends.
Outro Music
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