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The last episode of season 1 of the Broadening the Narrative podcast is out now! You can listen to the episode "Trusting Your Body with Danielle Stocker" for the Broadening the Narrative podcast by clicking on any of the hyperlinked platforms below.
Also on Overcast
In this episode of Broadening the Narrative, I talked with my lovely friend Danielle Stocker. We discussed trusting your body. Danielle shared about her journey toward seeing her body as a source of good and honest truths, the benefits of the internal family systems model of therapy, and why she believes this is important for everyone. I hope that if you know and love me you can engage with the Broadening the Narrative blog, social media accounts, and podcast, as well as any recommended resources. Then, you can share with people who know and love you, and little by little, person by person, we can broaden the narrative.
#broadeningthenarrativepodcast #podcast #newpodcast #podcastsofinstagram #trustingyourbody #listentoyourbody #eshetchayil #womanofvalor #internalfamilysystems #ifs #therapy #begentlewithyourself #faith #deconstruction #faithreconstruction #evolvingfaith #love #empathy #equality #humanity #church #community #emilynagoski #saundradaltonsmith #hillarymcbride #meganwooding #alisoncook #kimberlymiller #challengethenarrative #broadeningthenarrative
Transcript
4 clock ticks
“It’s past time to broaden the narrative” (said by Sequana Murray)
Intro Music
Introduction: Hello and welcome to another episode of Broadening the Narrative. This is a podcast where I talk to some of my favorite people who have broadened the narrative for me. I'm your host, Nicki Pappas, and I'm so glad you're here.
Transition Music
First Segment
Nicki: On today's episode of Broadening the Narrative, I am joined by my lovely friend Danielle Stocker. We will be discussing trusting your body. Before we begin, I just want to say that Danielle is one of my favorite people because she’s the person who invited me into healing and whole human flourishing. So, thank you, Danielle, for loving me through some difficult times with such a steadfast love, and I can honestly say I wouldn’t be where I am now without you. And thank you for coming onto the show!
Danielle: OMG, like tears.
(laughter)
Danielle: I love you.
Nicki: I love you, and I'm so excited. Okay. So tell us a little about yourself and your background.
Danielle: Okay. So, I am, I'm from Long Island, New York. I was born and raised there. It is also the birthplace of my relationship with the church, which is complicated. And I had kind of a messy family upbringing. I'm still coming to grips with all of that. I am the oldest of five-ish. It, again, it's complicated. So like we were kind of like the Italian Brady bunch, but like with far more dysfunction. So yeah, I am an Enneagram 6. I would say that like before COVID, I would have had a 5 wing but after COVID it’s like a hard 7 wing. I am a career mom of four. Their ages are 10, 9, 5, and 3. So yeah.
Nicki: Awesome. I love you bringing up Enneagram, of course. Well, the first question to kick us off here is, did you always know that your body was a source of good and honest truths?
Danielle: Yeah. No. My relationship with my body is like, I was telling you this, like the darkest timeline. So no, I didn't.
Nicki: Yeah. So you're like, “Short answer - no.”
Danielle: Short answer no.
Nicki: Yeah, so let's dig into that. What was the -
Danielle: Oh great.
Nicki: Yeah, yeah, this will be fun. What was the narrative you were taught, either implicitly or explicitly, or both, about yourself, your body, your emotions, your intuition, sort of all of that together?
Danielle: Yeah. So I was wrestling with this question because like the truth is, like even though their intentions, like the people closest to me, were likely not wanting to sabotage me, you know, it is how I subconsciously absorbed their data that matters. So like, it doesn't matter what they meant or how conscious they were because without healthy communication, I was just a kid and like I had no one to help me fix these toxic ideas that were coming in. So all that to say, I feel like I was objectified as a young girl. Not necessarily like explicitly, even though like that was a theme, but I feel like I was just this emotional resource for the adults closest to me. And I don't think that that's super uncommon. There wasn't much room for me to be a whole person with like feelings and preferences and boundaries. I think in our family, it was like the currency is production, like almost sadistically. Right. I felt like I had gained more respect while I would like the, I gained more respect if I would suppress like what my body and my soul were telling me. So it was like they glorified work, hard. And there was like this attitude of limitations exist, but they're only for the weak, and my parents would acknowledge that those people existed, but it just wasn't them. And because I cared so much what they thought about me, I couldn't be either. So, I guess that's mostly it. I mean, I would say I was always relentlessly proving myself as like the loyal helper, the caretaker, the peacekeeper, the mediator. I think now when I look back it's like my body was only valuable based on like how it made others feel. And so I would say even that it was like a vile relationship with my body because I would tear myself apart, like in every way, like mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually. Like I hated me all around.
Nicki: Well, thank you for sharing that. And I just want to acknowledge that like I'm holding your story and want space for your story. And I know we'll get into this more later, but I just know you've done so much work to get out of that space of thinking those things and then to not replicate those with your kids. So thanks for sharing that. Yeah. Well, I thought back to the book that I've talked with you about before called The Gift of Fear: And Other Survival Signals That Protect Us from Violence, and it's by Gavin de Becker. And I heard about that book because Glennon Doyle tweeted last year, “Girls are trained to prioritize others' comfort over our own safety. We are conditioned to honor politeness over our own instincts. We want to be accommodating even more than we want to be safe or comfortable or happy or freaking alive.” And so someone commented with The Gift of Fear, the book, as a recommendation, and we talked about it and it really messed with me in a good way, but I was wondering what your thoughts are on that tweet by Glennon Doyle.
Danielle: Yeah. So I feel like that plays into what I was just saying, you know, like my value as a human or at least how I felt, was like it was only as good as what it could offer. Like I was always this ingredient in someone else's story, and I was never enough, which again, like I know it wasn't an intentional message, not at least like a premeditated message. But ultimately like my whole life was built around this draining performance. And it played out in so many different ways. And I did have safe people at different times, you know, like it wasn't always bad. But there was this like responsibility that I felt, at least publicly, to take the hit for whatever emotional burden it was, however people needed me. I wanted to be there, and I thought I was strong enough to take it all on. Like, again, it goes back to like that weakness idea that like I refused to be. And so I showed up as the glue for friendships and relationships and parents and brothers and siblings. And I was always like the humor. I would be the one that like sought peace. And I wanted to hold everyone and like offer this support. And if someone needed to go last, like I would do that because there was such a drive for safety, in the sense of like being needed, like I wanted to secure my place. So I knew that I had to do all those roles or I would be dispensable, at least in my mind, that's how it felt.
Nicki: I would be curious, too, to maybe even talk about that quote with like a Black woman to see if it translates into like other women's experiences who aren't white women.
Danielle: Yeah.
Nicki: Like, I don't know. It's just something I was thinking as I was hearing what you were saying.
Danielle: Yeah, I know. And I, like, I filtered, there's so much that I'm saying that I recognize is through like a very clearly white privilege lens and so I can't unsee my whiteness, not super simply. So like I didn't dissect everything because I just realized that's a reality, but I do want to acknowledge that like I recognize I didn't have to struggle through what women struggle through and also carry the burden of what it means to be a Black person in America.
Nicki: Yeah. Yeah. Well you mentioned not liking yourself, and I was curious if there's anything you would add about how the narrative you were taught shaped how you viewed yourself.
Danielle: Yeah. So I would say that I definitely objectified myself as well. Like if you want to talk about reducing someone to what they can offer, I, that was what I was always concerned with. Like how do I make others feel? And that was tough because like it's always evolving. Like there's no bottom to that kind of thinking. So I was like constantly reading the room and anticipating all the needs of all the people, but especially the adults in my life. And so I carry those skills with me everywhere because I knew again that like I needed to be useful. And so I don't even think I knew who I was, like I just think there was so much drive to survive that like I didn't view myself any other way than just like this resource.
Nicki: Yeah. And I thought that’s really exhausting to be constantly going into rooms and prioritizing all these other people.
Danielle: Yeah.
Nicki: Yeah.
Danielle: Yeah.
Nicki: Well, we've also talked about this, but I recently started reading Megan Wooding’s book called Dear Sister.
Danielle: Yeah.
Nicki: And on page 26, she wrote, “Why do we think teaching girls their bodies are everyone else's first one day to be gifted to her husband will ensure their abstinence? Why do we think this will protect them? In and of itself, this invalidates their trust in themselves and understanding of their own worthiness.” And on page 30, she wrote, “Assuming our bodies are inherently sexual is where shaming starts. We judge the world for making sexualized children's toys, but then sexualize everything in our homes. ‘Oh, sweetie, you can't wear that.’ ‘Oh honey, don't dance like that.’” And I thought this was particularly interesting right now with everything happening with the “Save Our Children” and children's toys that people were trying to say like, “Oh, they're trying to indoctrinate our children, dah, dah, dah.” And I'm saying like I've only seen white people doing that, I'll say, but what do you think about those passages from Dear Sister?
Danielle: Yeah. So I feel like it's really funny to think of it like so literally right now, because I think, you know, she's right. Like we're not taught that we're also these autonomous humans like men and capable of deciding what is and isn't good for our bodies. So it's like, it's not much of a leap to figure out that that's going to be a problem. So there's like this way culture has communicated like a theme that it's in Christian culture, but I would say it's like even beyond that, and I've thought of it, like there's this idea that men have our best interests at heart. Right. Like they're like these intuitive demigods, you know, they're only occasionally flawed, and like if we would just yield to them, you know, things all around would just be better. So like there's no way around that when you think through what she's saying. I feel that really deeply, and I feel like men until super recently have led this broader idea of morality, and there's been like 0% oversight except for like the occasional and like accidental accountability but like only when it's like super public and we really literally cannot ignore this now. So, you know, I don’t know, when you think of like sexual abuse within the structure of the church, or like a corporate setting, I feel like the power dynamics, are so clear and like there's this need for silence around male indiscretion. So, I mean, I'm not saying like it should be completely reversed or like even like it could, ha, you know, because like women are flawed, too, right. Like I see that. I just feel like we need equity and accountability in these places. You know, like our RBG t-shirts, you know, that say, “Women should be in all the places where decisions are being made.” And like, if we're more specific, as far as like the sexualization of women's bodies, it feels like also to me that there's this idea that we as women can dress ourselves into some sort of like utopian world where like men will suddenly be unable to see us as like objects. And I just feel like it's dumb because it's not our clothes that are the issue, you know, or like the shape of our bodies or like that there's like six extra inches of skin, you know, in a two piece. I just feel like the problem’s that men have never really been asked to see us as more than that, and like, if you would view me as your sister, which I know we've talked about, right, like, but if men would view us as their sisters, which we are, right, like then it would be so much easier for them to see past my body and acknowledge my soul, you know, like stop reducing us down to the least common denominator, because we're not some like mindless collection of reproductive parts, you know, like we're whole humans and my body is not an ornament. It's a tool for me to steward to reconcile creation, you know.
Nicki: Yes. Yeah. I love you bringing up power cause that's something that I feel like so much goes back to power, but then like the objectification piece. I just wrote something like tonight, and I haven't posted it. It's short, but I'll read it. Like, “Not causing men to stumble just isn't going to cut it as a reason for me to not do or wear something anymore. I have a better idea. Let's teach boys and men to not objectify girls and women and hold them accountable when they do.” And then I was like #yourlustisntmyfault #howaboutdontobjectifyme #idontexistforyouandyourpleasure.
Danielle: Yes. Snaps. Snaps. All the snaps.
Nicki: Yeah. So all of that. Yeah. So Danielle, what prompted you then to begin broadening this narrative you were taught?
Danielle: Yeah, so I feel like there's so many things that I like want to hand you because I'm like, “Oh my gosh, please, everybody follow this, read this,” and so I'll give you a more specific list cause I'm sure I'm going to miss some stuff, but I figured like this part I would more go with like the person that really had a huge impact in the beginning of this, and so it took me a while to land on the therapist that we have now. So the first woman I saw, she was like super hippy-ish, but she was definitely like the right person for my like therapy intro, you know. She was a great coach, and I really do credit her with like so many of my now nuggets that I've held onto because she was so good at focusing on kindness toward ourselves. And I think, I always thought like, okay, but what if I fix this part of my life? You know, like, cause I felt like she would try to fix the conditions of my life and like give me ideas on how to edit those things. And then I'd be like, okay, but if you fix that, like won't I still be unsatisfied, right. Because like there's this broader idea, I think, that like we're just this bottomless, like illogically unsatisfiable people. And so I was always afraid that like, okay, yeah, but I just need to deal because like if I fix my conditions, it's not gonna change anything. I'm just always bent on like wanting more and better. And she just didn't agree. And she pushed me to do like really physical grounding exercises. So like I still use this all the time, but like doing cycles of deep breaths, and it's like weirdly helpful, like so helpful, and it like immediately helps. So I've been doing that and she was so good at giving that to me. She pushed me to be outside more. She was always big on like having bare feet in the grass. And like she had more of like a very hippy approach where she'd be like, you know, it's like the vibrations. And I was like, oh, I'm out. Like it’s a lot with the vibrations of the earth. But like, you know, whatever, I don't know. I don't know what I don't know, but I did agree that like it made such a huge difference for me. And I didn't even pay attention to that before, but like the quickest way to change my mood is to be in the sun, to like have a breeze, to hear the outside. There's something about like a perspective shift cause it suddenly feels like all my problems are small, and I just am this better human. I'm more willing to let things go. I'm willing to laugh at chaos with my humans like trying to like fight their way to the top of like my attention. So yeah.
Nicki: Yeah, and those are, minus the barefoot thing, I didn't know about that, but the deep breaths and the being outside are both things you've shared with me that I've found immensely beneficial after you suggested those to me. So yeah. Well, when on your journey did you know something has to change and how did you know that?
Danielle: Yeah, I think that was, this was hard for me cause I just feel like maybe I tuned it out, but I finally remembered how it started or at least how I started taking it super seriously. So I know I had like this awareness, right, and that it was like kind of this ever-increasing awareness even. There's like this internal battle with reconciling like my limitations with like people's expectations, you know. And, but I'm thinking that it was, I'm pretty sure it was at the beginning of 2018, but I had a panic attack, and it was so scary. Like it was traumatizing. I can feel it even now just mentioning it. Like I, it did something to me, and so I've never had one before that point, and I never really like felt any sort of physical limitations, you know. Like I never really was stopped by anything but like me. So, to have it show up in such a tangible way, I mean, it messed with me, and I was scared cause like suddenly I saw myself as vulnerable and fragile and I knew like there is a bottom to what I can endure stress wise. And I remember like what happened before, like I remember the intense emotions that rose up in me, and I remember like the physical feeling of it. And so now when I start to have like chest tightening or my body, like I get numbness in my fingers. I haven't had one since that point because I have always like taken those smaller symptoms as like alarms. So I know I'm doing too much. Yeah.
Nicki: Yeah. Well, where do you think you would be now if you hadn't taken action based on what you were learning?
Danielle: So even before the panic attack, which is funny like that this wasn't the bottom, but like there was this point in 2017, it was like, I don't know, Stella was probably like six months old, and I really genuinely started to like lose my actual mind, and I was suicidal. Like I really was thinking about like, how can I take my life and not have the kids be the ones that find me. And so it was, it was so dark. And I had wrestled with TJ, my husband, about going to therapy from like early on in our relationship, but he had like his own hangups with it because he had a bad experience in college, but I was like finally in such a bad place, like hysterical on the floor of the shower, like Lifetime movie status, but like in real life, that even TJ was like, I think we need help, you know, and so that was, that is scary and was scary. But at that point we did go to the doctor, and I did start on antidepressants, which, you know, a couple of years ago, I probably wouldn't have told people. But now they just transformed my life in such a huge way that like I just want people to feel free to like consider that like chemical imbalance is a real thing and not all of us are given like the same deck, you know. And then even as you live your life, like you're not living the same deck. So like, I don't know. I don't know, but there could be something that would help stabilize things. So yeah, I, that was like the point where I started to kind of crawl out of that, out of that space.
Nicki: Thank you for sharing that too. And I'm really glad you're here.
Danielle: I love you.
Nicki: I love you. Well, what has your journey been like broadening this narrative you once believed?
Danielle: So like clearly, right, it's been rough. I've been in therapy now for about three years, pretty consistently. So, it's been costly like, I mean obviously financially, right. But it's also been costly in a lot of other ways. And I know that if I knew then what I know now, I would have hesitated if not been so fearful that I wouldn't have even moved ahead. So I'm at a point now in my life where I'm just glad I don't know what's happening tomorrow. Like tomorrow, again, like that verse, it talks about, you know, like tomorrow has enough of its own worries, like just pay attention to today. And so I've lost people that I would say they’re the people that benefited from me being unhealthy, and so I've lost those people and the price has been like cripplingly high. I can't like lie and say it's not that serious because it is. And I still feel that staying in pain, I don't know what the future holds. Right. But I know that like for now, this is the best decision for where I am now today, for my people even, like cause I'm bent on the idea of plowing new ground for my people, whoever will listen, right? Like there's this generational baggage that I've been carrying around, and it's not going to handle itself. Like if I want better for my family and my kids and for their kids, I've got to draw a line, I've got to heal the broken places, and I know too much now, like I can't go back. And it's 2020, right, so like we have this endless resource at our fingertips, you know, like the internet is just so available. So whatever I'm trying to work through, I just feel like I'm living in such a privileged time that like I can't stay where I am. I've got to get healthy, and I'm starting with my mind.
Nicki: Hmm. Yeah. And you definitely are doing such hard work breaking those generational cycles. Yeah. And I'm just so grateful to know you and to learn from you. So thank you.
Danielle: Same, friend, Same.
Nicki: Well, so obviously it's a journey you're still on and you're still in it, but how do you view yourself now in relation to your body, your emotions, your intuition.
Danielle: Yeah. So, yeah, it's not always great because now I'm out here trying to undo like 30 years of messaging, but I don't resent me anymore. Like I can honestly say that I don't resent myself. I would even say confidently that I like myself. I mean it. I trust my body so much more now. It's been good to me. It's gotten me where I am today, and so when it speaks, I'm more aware and you know, like I was saying earlier, it's like when my chest tightens, that's the first clue that I need to pay attention, and I probably need to dig a little and maybe I even need to reevaluate whatever it is.
Nicki: Yeah. I love that practical example of the feeling your chest tighten and seeing that as a symptom of something deeper and trusting your body to figure out what it's trying to tell you. Yeah, it's really good.
Transition Music
Second Segment
Danielle: OMG, like tears.
(laughter)
Danielle: I love you.
Nicki: I love you, and I'm so excited. Okay. So tell us a little about yourself and your background.
Danielle: Okay. So, I am, I'm from Long Island, New York. I was born and raised there. It is also the birthplace of my relationship with the church, which is complicated. And I had kind of a messy family upbringing. I'm still coming to grips with all of that. I am the oldest of five-ish. It, again, it's complicated. So like we were kind of like the Italian Brady bunch, but like with far more dysfunction. So yeah, I am an Enneagram 6. I would say that like before COVID, I would have had a 5 wing but after COVID it’s like a hard 7 wing. I am a career mom of four. Their ages are 10, 9, 5, and 3. So yeah.
Nicki: Awesome. I love you bringing up Enneagram, of course. Well, the first question to kick us off here is, did you always know that your body was a source of good and honest truths?
Danielle: Yeah. No. My relationship with my body is like, I was telling you this, like the darkest timeline. So no, I didn't.
Nicki: Yeah. So you're like, “Short answer - no.”
Danielle: Short answer no.
Nicki: Yeah, so let's dig into that. What was the -
Danielle: Oh great.
Nicki: Yeah, yeah, this will be fun. What was the narrative you were taught, either implicitly or explicitly, or both, about yourself, your body, your emotions, your intuition, sort of all of that together?
Danielle: Yeah. So I was wrestling with this question because like the truth is, like even though their intentions, like the people closest to me, were likely not wanting to sabotage me, you know, it is how I subconsciously absorbed their data that matters. So like, it doesn't matter what they meant or how conscious they were because without healthy communication, I was just a kid and like I had no one to help me fix these toxic ideas that were coming in. So all that to say, I feel like I was objectified as a young girl. Not necessarily like explicitly, even though like that was a theme, but I feel like I was just this emotional resource for the adults closest to me. And I don't think that that's super uncommon. There wasn't much room for me to be a whole person with like feelings and preferences and boundaries. I think in our family, it was like the currency is production, like almost sadistically. Right. I felt like I had gained more respect while I would like the, I gained more respect if I would suppress like what my body and my soul were telling me. So it was like they glorified work, hard. And there was like this attitude of limitations exist, but they're only for the weak, and my parents would acknowledge that those people existed, but it just wasn't them. And because I cared so much what they thought about me, I couldn't be either. So, I guess that's mostly it. I mean, I would say I was always relentlessly proving myself as like the loyal helper, the caretaker, the peacekeeper, the mediator. I think now when I look back it's like my body was only valuable based on like how it made others feel. And so I would say even that it was like a vile relationship with my body because I would tear myself apart, like in every way, like mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually. Like I hated me all around.
Nicki: Well, thank you for sharing that. And I just want to acknowledge that like I'm holding your story and want space for your story. And I know we'll get into this more later, but I just know you've done so much work to get out of that space of thinking those things and then to not replicate those with your kids. So thanks for sharing that. Yeah. Well, I thought back to the book that I've talked with you about before called The Gift of Fear: And Other Survival Signals That Protect Us from Violence, and it's by Gavin de Becker. And I heard about that book because Glennon Doyle tweeted last year, “Girls are trained to prioritize others' comfort over our own safety. We are conditioned to honor politeness over our own instincts. We want to be accommodating even more than we want to be safe or comfortable or happy or freaking alive.” And so someone commented with The Gift of Fear, the book, as a recommendation, and we talked about it and it really messed with me in a good way, but I was wondering what your thoughts are on that tweet by Glennon Doyle.
Danielle: Yeah. So I feel like that plays into what I was just saying, you know, like my value as a human or at least how I felt, was like it was only as good as what it could offer. Like I was always this ingredient in someone else's story, and I was never enough, which again, like I know it wasn't an intentional message, not at least like a premeditated message. But ultimately like my whole life was built around this draining performance. And it played out in so many different ways. And I did have safe people at different times, you know, like it wasn't always bad. But there was this like responsibility that I felt, at least publicly, to take the hit for whatever emotional burden it was, however people needed me. I wanted to be there, and I thought I was strong enough to take it all on. Like, again, it goes back to like that weakness idea that like I refused to be. And so I showed up as the glue for friendships and relationships and parents and brothers and siblings. And I was always like the humor. I would be the one that like sought peace. And I wanted to hold everyone and like offer this support. And if someone needed to go last, like I would do that because there was such a drive for safety, in the sense of like being needed, like I wanted to secure my place. So I knew that I had to do all those roles or I would be dispensable, at least in my mind, that's how it felt.
Nicki: I would be curious, too, to maybe even talk about that quote with like a Black woman to see if it translates into like other women's experiences who aren't white women.
Danielle: Yeah.
Nicki: Like, I don't know. It's just something I was thinking as I was hearing what you were saying.
Danielle: Yeah, I know. And I, like, I filtered, there's so much that I'm saying that I recognize is through like a very clearly white privilege lens and so I can't unsee my whiteness, not super simply. So like I didn't dissect everything because I just realized that's a reality, but I do want to acknowledge that like I recognize I didn't have to struggle through what women struggle through and also carry the burden of what it means to be a Black person in America.
Nicki: Yeah. Yeah. Well you mentioned not liking yourself, and I was curious if there's anything you would add about how the narrative you were taught shaped how you viewed yourself.
Danielle: Yeah. So I would say that I definitely objectified myself as well. Like if you want to talk about reducing someone to what they can offer, I, that was what I was always concerned with. Like how do I make others feel? And that was tough because like it's always evolving. Like there's no bottom to that kind of thinking. So I was like constantly reading the room and anticipating all the needs of all the people, but especially the adults in my life. And so I carry those skills with me everywhere because I knew again that like I needed to be useful. And so I don't even think I knew who I was, like I just think there was so much drive to survive that like I didn't view myself any other way than just like this resource.
Nicki: Yeah. And I thought that’s really exhausting to be constantly going into rooms and prioritizing all these other people.
Danielle: Yeah.
Nicki: Yeah.
Danielle: Yeah.
Nicki: Well, we've also talked about this, but I recently started reading Megan Wooding’s book called Dear Sister.
Danielle: Yeah.
Nicki: And on page 26, she wrote, “Why do we think teaching girls their bodies are everyone else's first one day to be gifted to her husband will ensure their abstinence? Why do we think this will protect them? In and of itself, this invalidates their trust in themselves and understanding of their own worthiness.” And on page 30, she wrote, “Assuming our bodies are inherently sexual is where shaming starts. We judge the world for making sexualized children's toys, but then sexualize everything in our homes. ‘Oh, sweetie, you can't wear that.’ ‘Oh honey, don't dance like that.’” And I thought this was particularly interesting right now with everything happening with the “Save Our Children” and children's toys that people were trying to say like, “Oh, they're trying to indoctrinate our children, dah, dah, dah.” And I'm saying like I've only seen white people doing that, I'll say, but what do you think about those passages from Dear Sister?
Danielle: Yeah. So I feel like it's really funny to think of it like so literally right now, because I think, you know, she's right. Like we're not taught that we're also these autonomous humans like men and capable of deciding what is and isn't good for our bodies. So it's like, it's not much of a leap to figure out that that's going to be a problem. So there's like this way culture has communicated like a theme that it's in Christian culture, but I would say it's like even beyond that, and I've thought of it, like there's this idea that men have our best interests at heart. Right. Like they're like these intuitive demigods, you know, they're only occasionally flawed, and like if we would just yield to them, you know, things all around would just be better. So like there's no way around that when you think through what she's saying. I feel that really deeply, and I feel like men until super recently have led this broader idea of morality, and there's been like 0% oversight except for like the occasional and like accidental accountability but like only when it's like super public and we really literally cannot ignore this now. So, you know, I don’t know, when you think of like sexual abuse within the structure of the church, or like a corporate setting, I feel like the power dynamics, are so clear and like there's this need for silence around male indiscretion. So, I mean, I'm not saying like it should be completely reversed or like even like it could, ha, you know, because like women are flawed, too, right. Like I see that. I just feel like we need equity and accountability in these places. You know, like our RBG t-shirts, you know, that say, “Women should be in all the places where decisions are being made.” And like, if we're more specific, as far as like the sexualization of women's bodies, it feels like also to me that there's this idea that we as women can dress ourselves into some sort of like utopian world where like men will suddenly be unable to see us as like objects. And I just feel like it's dumb because it's not our clothes that are the issue, you know, or like the shape of our bodies or like that there's like six extra inches of skin, you know, in a two piece. I just feel like the problem’s that men have never really been asked to see us as more than that, and like, if you would view me as your sister, which I know we've talked about, right, like, but if men would view us as their sisters, which we are, right, like then it would be so much easier for them to see past my body and acknowledge my soul, you know, like stop reducing us down to the least common denominator, because we're not some like mindless collection of reproductive parts, you know, like we're whole humans and my body is not an ornament. It's a tool for me to steward to reconcile creation, you know.
Nicki: Yes. Yeah. I love you bringing up power cause that's something that I feel like so much goes back to power, but then like the objectification piece. I just wrote something like tonight, and I haven't posted it. It's short, but I'll read it. Like, “Not causing men to stumble just isn't going to cut it as a reason for me to not do or wear something anymore. I have a better idea. Let's teach boys and men to not objectify girls and women and hold them accountable when they do.” And then I was like #yourlustisntmyfault #howaboutdontobjectifyme #idontexistforyouandyourpleasure.
Danielle: Yes. Snaps. Snaps. All the snaps.
Nicki: Yeah. So all of that. Yeah. So Danielle, what prompted you then to begin broadening this narrative you were taught?
Danielle: Yeah, so I feel like there's so many things that I like want to hand you because I'm like, “Oh my gosh, please, everybody follow this, read this,” and so I'll give you a more specific list cause I'm sure I'm going to miss some stuff, but I figured like this part I would more go with like the person that really had a huge impact in the beginning of this, and so it took me a while to land on the therapist that we have now. So the first woman I saw, she was like super hippy-ish, but she was definitely like the right person for my like therapy intro, you know. She was a great coach, and I really do credit her with like so many of my now nuggets that I've held onto because she was so good at focusing on kindness toward ourselves. And I think, I always thought like, okay, but what if I fix this part of my life? You know, like, cause I felt like she would try to fix the conditions of my life and like give me ideas on how to edit those things. And then I'd be like, okay, but if you fix that, like won't I still be unsatisfied, right. Because like there's this broader idea, I think, that like we're just this bottomless, like illogically unsatisfiable people. And so I was always afraid that like, okay, yeah, but I just need to deal because like if I fix my conditions, it's not gonna change anything. I'm just always bent on like wanting more and better. And she just didn't agree. And she pushed me to do like really physical grounding exercises. So like I still use this all the time, but like doing cycles of deep breaths, and it's like weirdly helpful, like so helpful, and it like immediately helps. So I've been doing that and she was so good at giving that to me. She pushed me to be outside more. She was always big on like having bare feet in the grass. And like she had more of like a very hippy approach where she'd be like, you know, it's like the vibrations. And I was like, oh, I'm out. Like it’s a lot with the vibrations of the earth. But like, you know, whatever, I don't know. I don't know what I don't know, but I did agree that like it made such a huge difference for me. And I didn't even pay attention to that before, but like the quickest way to change my mood is to be in the sun, to like have a breeze, to hear the outside. There's something about like a perspective shift cause it suddenly feels like all my problems are small, and I just am this better human. I'm more willing to let things go. I'm willing to laugh at chaos with my humans like trying to like fight their way to the top of like my attention. So yeah.
Nicki: Yeah, and those are, minus the barefoot thing, I didn't know about that, but the deep breaths and the being outside are both things you've shared with me that I've found immensely beneficial after you suggested those to me. So yeah. Well, when on your journey did you know something has to change and how did you know that?
Danielle: Yeah, I think that was, this was hard for me cause I just feel like maybe I tuned it out, but I finally remembered how it started or at least how I started taking it super seriously. So I know I had like this awareness, right, and that it was like kind of this ever-increasing awareness even. There's like this internal battle with reconciling like my limitations with like people's expectations, you know. And, but I'm thinking that it was, I'm pretty sure it was at the beginning of 2018, but I had a panic attack, and it was so scary. Like it was traumatizing. I can feel it even now just mentioning it. Like I, it did something to me, and so I've never had one before that point, and I never really like felt any sort of physical limitations, you know. Like I never really was stopped by anything but like me. So, to have it show up in such a tangible way, I mean, it messed with me, and I was scared cause like suddenly I saw myself as vulnerable and fragile and I knew like there is a bottom to what I can endure stress wise. And I remember like what happened before, like I remember the intense emotions that rose up in me, and I remember like the physical feeling of it. And so now when I start to have like chest tightening or my body, like I get numbness in my fingers. I haven't had one since that point because I have always like taken those smaller symptoms as like alarms. So I know I'm doing too much. Yeah.
Nicki: Yeah. Well, where do you think you would be now if you hadn't taken action based on what you were learning?
Danielle: So even before the panic attack, which is funny like that this wasn't the bottom, but like there was this point in 2017, it was like, I don't know, Stella was probably like six months old, and I really genuinely started to like lose my actual mind, and I was suicidal. Like I really was thinking about like, how can I take my life and not have the kids be the ones that find me. And so it was, it was so dark. And I had wrestled with TJ, my husband, about going to therapy from like early on in our relationship, but he had like his own hangups with it because he had a bad experience in college, but I was like finally in such a bad place, like hysterical on the floor of the shower, like Lifetime movie status, but like in real life, that even TJ was like, I think we need help, you know, and so that was, that is scary and was scary. But at that point we did go to the doctor, and I did start on antidepressants, which, you know, a couple of years ago, I probably wouldn't have told people. But now they just transformed my life in such a huge way that like I just want people to feel free to like consider that like chemical imbalance is a real thing and not all of us are given like the same deck, you know. And then even as you live your life, like you're not living the same deck. So like, I don't know. I don't know, but there could be something that would help stabilize things. So yeah, I, that was like the point where I started to kind of crawl out of that, out of that space.
Nicki: Thank you for sharing that too. And I'm really glad you're here.
Danielle: I love you.
Nicki: I love you. Well, what has your journey been like broadening this narrative you once believed?
Danielle: So like clearly, right, it's been rough. I've been in therapy now for about three years, pretty consistently. So, it's been costly like, I mean obviously financially, right. But it's also been costly in a lot of other ways. And I know that if I knew then what I know now, I would have hesitated if not been so fearful that I wouldn't have even moved ahead. So I'm at a point now in my life where I'm just glad I don't know what's happening tomorrow. Like tomorrow, again, like that verse, it talks about, you know, like tomorrow has enough of its own worries, like just pay attention to today. And so I've lost people that I would say they’re the people that benefited from me being unhealthy, and so I've lost those people and the price has been like cripplingly high. I can't like lie and say it's not that serious because it is. And I still feel that staying in pain, I don't know what the future holds. Right. But I know that like for now, this is the best decision for where I am now today, for my people even, like cause I'm bent on the idea of plowing new ground for my people, whoever will listen, right? Like there's this generational baggage that I've been carrying around, and it's not going to handle itself. Like if I want better for my family and my kids and for their kids, I've got to draw a line, I've got to heal the broken places, and I know too much now, like I can't go back. And it's 2020, right, so like we have this endless resource at our fingertips, you know, like the internet is just so available. So whatever I'm trying to work through, I just feel like I'm living in such a privileged time that like I can't stay where I am. I've got to get healthy, and I'm starting with my mind.
Nicki: Hmm. Yeah. And you definitely are doing such hard work breaking those generational cycles. Yeah. And I'm just so grateful to know you and to learn from you. So thank you.
Danielle: Same, friend, Same.
Nicki: Well, so obviously it's a journey you're still on and you're still in it, but how do you view yourself now in relation to your body, your emotions, your intuition.
Danielle: Yeah. So, yeah, it's not always great because now I'm out here trying to undo like 30 years of messaging, but I don't resent me anymore. Like I can honestly say that I don't resent myself. I would even say confidently that I like myself. I mean it. I trust my body so much more now. It's been good to me. It's gotten me where I am today, and so when it speaks, I'm more aware and you know, like I was saying earlier, it's like when my chest tightens, that's the first clue that I need to pay attention, and I probably need to dig a little and maybe I even need to reevaluate whatever it is.
Nicki: Yeah. I love that practical example of the feeling your chest tighten and seeing that as a symptom of something deeper and trusting your body to figure out what it's trying to tell you. Yeah, it's really good.
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Second Segment
Nicki: Well, to bring up another quote from Dear Sister, on page 39, Megan Wooding wrote, “Self-discovery and self-compassion have to go hand in hand. Entering darkness in compassion has been a new experience for me. Instead of going in ready to do battle and push back a frontline, I enter dark places gently and with respect for what they have to teach me. I struggle to rectify the version of God taught by many men who are yelling to drown out the rolling thunder of their personal darkness with the God I know who always meets me in mine. Who whispers through my hurricane, ‘Be still and know.’” So I thought of how you've said before that pastors who are heaping shame on their church members are preaching and teaching from a place of shame as they're burdened by their own shame. And so I was curious if you could talk more about that.
Danielle: Sure. So this is my opinion, right, but like I feel like there is this major download of knowledge that happens in seminaries, right, and I just feel like it's horribly inadequate. Like how are we equipping leaders with simply knowledge? Because like the further I get from my dark places, like what she's saying in that quote, you know, I realized like the depths of darkness that are buried within each of us. And so again, to me, it's like actually irresponsible to send these men and women, which really, I mean, it's mostly men, to shepherd others when they haven't ever even been expected to reconcile like their own souls. Not really, you know. Like the fact that therapy isn't a regular requirement for qualification of eldership is just one of the clearest signals to me of how ill-prepared they are. Like I've seen how teaching from unhealth can't help but draw unhealthy people. So then we have these churches that are filled up with like people who are going to stay right where they are. Like our souls are intricate and they're woven with like all these broken and unchecked stories, and I think that we need these deep excavations periodically, but even like regularly, because it's also been my experience that therapy is not really talked about in the greater church, like the big C church, and so I feel like, I guess at this point, I'm thinking like it's not enough for someone to just want to share their version of the gospel and like to build their version of what it looks like to help people cause I just don't think you can help anyone if you don't even know how much help you need.
Nicki: Oh, that's so good. Yeah. Well, I think even Megan's observation about the self-discovery and self-compassion going hand in hand echoes what you were saying even about like being kind to yourself. And it reminded me of the internal family systems model of therapy, which we both have as the model within our therapy and in the book Boundaries for Your Soul by Alison Cook and Kimberly Miller. And so I want to read a part from that where they wrote about how you're leading from your Spirit-led self when you're experiencing curiosity and compassion toward your sanctimonious managers, your straying firefighters and suffering exiles that make up your internal family, because these are parts of you. And Jesus spent time with people who were sanctimonious, who were straying, and who were suffering, and what did Jesus do? Jesus extended curiosity and compassion. So we can invite Jesus to be near to those parts of us and know that there is love, there is grace, and acceptance. And then we can unburden the false belief burdens that we're carrying around, weighing us down. So how has it been for you specifically to lead your internal family from your Spirit-led self by having that curiosity and compassion for these various parts inside of you?
Danielle: Yeah. I know like some part of me is like, I mean, you said it and it's great. You don't need me here. But I guess I would say like that there's been a whole posture shift because I don't think I've ever, I think I've only ever resented and cursed the broken places in me. Like I've never been kind or compassionate enough to myself to try and hear from those places. So like my life experience has been anchored in the idea that like if I just obliterate the ugly overflow in me and if I'm just tough enough and disciplined enough and like if I just have that willing to beat myself kind of grit, that I'll get through it or like I can just kill those broken places in me. So I've sat under this more intentionally loving teaching in the last few years. And like for the first year, I would say there wasn't a service that I didn't come out of balling. Like it wrecked me because there was such an expression of compassion that came from his teaching. And it put me in this position of just being fed and being loved and being shepherded in a way that, to be quite honest, like I don't know that I ever have been. I have one youth pastor that I remember from when I was young that shepherded me that way, like in a way that even my parents didn't know how, so it's like, I'm thinking about how God is so kind to put me in this place where there's this desire to see me whole. But not because like shame or pressure or like my pain is annoying people or because like the church needs you to be healthy so you can do more ministries. You know, it's like my wholeness is one more small step toward, “On earth as it is in heaven.” And my wholeness is this compounding goodness, right. Like my wholeness means I get to invite people to join, and I can also like coach them from a better place, you know. And so while reconciling, right, like my original ideas of God that were like broken with my pictures of God and the way I always thought like parents reflected God, you know, like there's a lot of confusion and entanglement there. But in more recent years, I've been trying to reframe my perspective in light of the idea of Jesus as Emmanuel, right, like God with us. Because like Jesus isn't fragile, you know, he's so stable. So like when those reactionary places in me have space and I can hear them and he can hear them, I don't have to fear or get angry. It's like, it's okay. Like a lot of it makes so much sense even, you know, cause these roots are always set within like these deep wounds that haven't been addressed. And our, my therapist said this in the beginning of the time I was with her, she said that it's been so consistent in the 30 years she's been practicing that when we get curious and we give a voice to the exiles, those painful emotions that are like at the bottom of our reflex reactions, you discover there's always a why for the patterns and you position yourself to heal, so we can rest and thank our internal managers and defenses because they got us here. And then I would just say it's good to give room for free writing. I think that's probably where I've dug to the bottom of most of my roots that I've dealt with so far. Some of it happens in therapy, but a lot of the work in therapy happens like outside of it, you know, and so the idea of like free writing meaning like you don't stop, you just pour what's in your head out onto the paper. There's no critiquing it or like structuring it or it's just like, you don't fix anything you just plow through and dump all of your feelings onto this paper. And like she recommends actually that you throw it out, but I have kept a few of them, and it is fascinating to see how powerful that is. Like journaling is crazy powerful.
Nicki: Dennissa Young just had a video performance come out, and it was called “Untethered,” and she's on the video, and there's music set to it, and one of the lines that is being sung is, “I must learn to love myself untethered,” and I'm like crying watching this, right, and I actually got to interview Dennissa for the podcast. And from the time that this releases, hers will have come out on October 20th, I believe. But one thing that we talked about on her call was how for most of our lives, we lacked an understanding of the “as yourself” piece of the command to love your neighbor as yourself. And yeah, like I shared how I'm still learning what it looks like to love myself as an image bearer and just show that same compassion and kindness to myself that I want to show to others. And yeah. And how, in order to love myself correctly, and I thought about, you know, the benediction at Transformation, right, like love God completely, yourself correctly, go out and love your neighbor compassionately. And just this how loving myself is such new territory, because yeah, like for so often I was told, and I remember telling others that like, “We don't need to be taught to love ourselves. Like we already do. Of course there's not a command for it. We already do.” But now I see the flaws in that because this idea is that to love yourself would mean to be selfish and narcissistically focusing on yourself, but I'm like, well, that kind of love is no love at all. Right. But if I, I want to use some of Dennissa's words here, she talked about how she wants her art to foster gentleness and radical empathy and softness. And I just loved those words. And so I was like, man, if I can foster those things in me toward myself, then what's going to happen. That's going to spill over so that I can love my neighbor with gentleness, radical empathy, and softness, love them as I love myself because how I love myself informs how I love my neighbor.
Danielle: Exactly.
Nicki: So that's just something I keep people thinking about now. And that came to my mind as you were sharing.
Danielle: Yeah. Yeah. That's so good. That's so good.
Nicki: Yeah. Well, Danielle, can you recall specific times that you can look at that validated the voice and the value of your body's intuition?
Danielle: Yes. So I didn't go super deep on this cause I just thought like it was simple, right. Like my body was telling me for years I knew I needed therapy, you know, and I didn't move forward and like it's this weird thing with like the power dynamics in my home at the time because I would have said that like I never wanted to overpower my husband anyway, and I still don't, right. Like I want us to have this equity in our relationship. I want us to co-labor. I want us to work together and move forward together. Like I don't want to plow through if he's not with me. So I always yielded like final decisions to him, right, and I think there would be a spin on that now because I know he didn't want me to go to therapy, and he just thought it was going to be dumb, and like they would just like try to force feed me, you know, like numbing medication. And, again, like he had this bad experience, so I get it right. But like my body knew. And even my mind at that point knew like, “You need to go.” And so that is, you know, now looking back, and even he will like remorsefully recall that and be like, “I wish I would've listened sooner,” you know, that it didn't have to get that bad. And then the other thing I was thinking was like when I had kids, I knew that they would mirror whatever my relationship was with my body. Like I just knew it, and it's probably because I see how much of mine is mirrored from what my mother like did with hers, you know, and I have one child who was just born this way. Like she would pick apart her body and her hair and her personality. Like she just didn't like herself. And she was little, and there was already so much of this negative self-talk. And I wasn't having it cause I was like, “No, we are not giving you this fresh brand new body and you've already got all this trash in your mind.” Like, no, cause it's like, she's already built this way, the world is going to push you that way even further, you know, she's already vulnerable to that negativity and that tearing of herself. So I would literally like make her shout, and I would tell her like, “You have to shout louder than the voices in your head and louder than the voices that are outside of your head. You have to shout that your body is perfect.” And so she still does this sometimes. I think now we probably use more language like good and sacred, but at the time I was just shooting from the hip, and I wasn't having it. So I was like, there's no word better than this right now. Like, but we know, right, we're not perfect, but our bodies are good and our bodies are sacred. And I have seen with her like live right in the wild, like she's rerouted so many self critiques with that exact like mantra.
Nicki: I'm curious. Do you think that being an Enneagram 6 better equipped you for saying like, “Shout louder than the voices in your head?”
Danielle: I don't know. Right. Like I haven't even thought about that. I know that like, there's, right, like the counterphobic in me for sure is like, runs toward these fears, you know, and I think I've never been more afraid than when I've had kids, right, cause there's just like this, there's so much responsibility. Like I've always known that it was going to take my all and that they didn't ask for this. Like I brought them here, you know, and I’ve always wanted to love them like I wasn't loved, and so like I care so much about their thought life because I want them to talk to me, like I want them to not get stuck, you know, cause like at least if they can share what they’re thinking, right, then I can help them reconcile, and I’m not gonna fix them all the way, right, I’m going to just be a persistent voice of kindness and reason and gentleness, and when they critique others so harshly, I know that that, right, is like their own voice critiquing themselves. Like if you’re out here tearing people apart, it says a lot about what your thought life is toward yourself, and so my goal is like you have to be louder, like you know, you have to wrestle and force these good, sacred ideas into your mind because the world is coming at you at like a thousand miles an hour, and the messages you’re gonna get are going to like tear you apart, so yeah.
Nicki: Yeah, that’s, yeah, that’s so true. Well, Danielle, what resources have been most beneficial for you so far on this journey and which of those would you say someone needs to start with if they’re looking to broaden that narrative they were taught about themselves, their bodies, if it’s similar to your experience?
Danielle: Okay, so I had a few things. So like there’s tangible things that I did, and I talked about before, like the deep breathing cycles. My therapist was really good about like coaching me, like having some sort of autonomy over my body, like I never really considered myself an autonomous being, and so like giving myself permission to leave a room to regroup. Like even with my kids, like, you know, modeling that behavior, even like, “Mommy needs a minute,” like “Mommy needs to go have a minute, and I’ll be back.” And then I told you journaling, therapy obviously. I have some health bent friends, of which you are in the mix, and that’s been so helpful. So I’ve also learned what feels like rest to me. So like specifically me, what fills me, naps have been really important, like permission for naps, you know, like listening to my body, and it’s like it’s tired. You don’t need another cup of coffee, like you need a rest. Getting 7 hours of sleep. There’s a lot of science behind that if you want to look into it, but like, 7 hours of sleep is super restorative for our bodies, and even 6 and a half, there’s like something really crazy that happens on the other side of 7 hours where like your body’s immunity is just so much more capable. So vegetables, like my body really does love vegetables. It feels so good when I eat them regularly. I talked about this already. Being outside, sunshine, being near water, especially the ocean. Drawing, organizing, squeezing my kids, laughing with TJ till I cry, and cooking good food for good friends. So those were like my tangibles, right, and then as far as mindset and mantra and like the nuggets that I’ve had, that have been beneficial, I have to always remind myself that like I have also been made in the image of God, and that just resets me whenever I’m not practicing kindness toward myself. I tell myself that my body is sacred and that it often knows truths before my mind does. I’ve learned to ask for what I need instead of expecting others to intuit my needs. And so then there’s books, and I don’t know if you want to list them here.
Nicki: Yeah. I can also put them in the show notes, but, yeah, you can list them here.
Danielle: Okay, so, it’s really bottomless, but these are like the 5 that should be like a curriculum at this point, but like so Burnout: The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle by Emily Nagoski, and she also wrote the book Come as You Are, and like both of those center on figuring out your body specifically. I just feel like I just haven’t had that experience. My mom didn’t understand her body, she still doesn’t sometimes, the things she says makes me laugh, like, you know, she came from like a really ethnic Italian background, and so it was just a lot of silencing about bodies, but anyway, so Burnout is fantastic. Come as You Are. Sacred Rest by Saundra Dalton-Smith is so good, and she even, I’m pretty sure there’s a message that she taught that’s available from Transformation.
Nicki: Yeah.
Danielle: Yeah. That was so good when she came. Another one that was like I couldn’t even believe it existed I was so grateful, it’s called Mothers, Daughters, and Body Image by Hillary McBride. She has a podcast, too, which is so good, and I meant to write that down, but Other People’s Problems is the podcast she hosts, and she kind of just lets you in on, she’s a therapist, and so she lets you in on these sessions with people, and it is both fascinating and enlightening. It’s so good, it’s so intimate, it’s crazy that some people, I mean obviously they don’t share their names or anything, but the fact that people would be so vulnerable publicly. And so then Boundaries for Your Soul, which you know, by Kimberly Miller and Alison Cook. And then there’s 2 episodes of The Robcast where his wife comes on and talks about anxiety, and so I’m gonna send you the links for those.
Nicki: Yeah.
Danielle: I think it’s like episode 126, I don’t know, I’m gonna send you the links. And then I wrote like literally every episode of The Next Right Thing with Emily P. Freeman. She has like this voice that is so, so sweet and kind and gentle. It’s so relaxing to hear her talk, and she’s just, she’s a 9 on the Enneagram, so she just, I don’t know, she’s one of the kindest people, and she’s so good about telling you how to like just move a little bit, you know, and just see what’s right in front of you. Her whole podcast is so good.
Nicki: Yeah. Those are awesome. Thanks.
Danielle: I’m sorry. There’s so many more, but I was just like this is probably like the boiled down most important.
Nicki: Yes. That’s awesome. Well, friend, we have just a few questions before our time recording will be over, but what advice do you have for others who are broadening the narrative about themselves, their bodies, their emotions, and their intuition?
Danielle: Right, so I would say observe and listen. I would say you should try new things and old things. I think you should reevaluate things that overwhelm you. You should pay close attention to your body’s reactions. You should spend time journaling, like the free journaling the way I was talking about earlier, and you should think about your most favorite childhood memories because for me at least that’s when I figured out what rest looked like for me specifically. So my body like held onto those things for a reason, you know, and so the images that I have as a child and then my most favorite memories are the things that still fill me to this day, so that’s what rest would look like for me now. Yeah. I think that’s it.
Nicki: Yeah, well what is your hope for people as the narrative is broadened for you?
Danielle: So I just want to say, friends, for real, like can we just get free? Like can we heal and begin to trust our vessels as complete and good and holy and sacred? Can we believe that they are the dynamic vehicle God has given us to redeem creation, to reconcile heaven on earth? Can we ignore arbitrary beauty standards and just put on clothes that make us feel good and enable us to do good work? And another thing, our self-talk matters because we have also been made in God’s image, and if you wouldn’t speak to the people you love with the thoughts you speak to yourself, then know that Jesus wouldn’t either. God is not scarce with his mercy and kindness, right. The Father’s the provider. The Father’s steady, the protector, the giver, the merciful, and at the table there is plenty, so dig in and have seconds because that is where we ought to anchor our days and meditations. Let’s thank the body we are in and make room to steward it with kindness because it’s good.
Nicki: I love that. That was so beautiful.
Danielle: I love you.
Nicki: I just don’t want this to be over, but what is one action that you can commit to bring your hope to fruition?
Danielle: So I will keep sharing what I’ve learned, and I will continue to invite others into this freedom.
Nicki: Yes. Yes. And again, I said this at the beginning, but it’s because of you, you invited me, and I am just forever grateful. And, my friend, thank you for coming onto the show. I just, I always love listening to you.
Danielle: You’re so funny.
Nicki: I just really appreciate you sharing your story, and I just love you so much.
Danielle: I love you so much.
Danielle: Sure. So this is my opinion, right, but like I feel like there is this major download of knowledge that happens in seminaries, right, and I just feel like it's horribly inadequate. Like how are we equipping leaders with simply knowledge? Because like the further I get from my dark places, like what she's saying in that quote, you know, I realized like the depths of darkness that are buried within each of us. And so again, to me, it's like actually irresponsible to send these men and women, which really, I mean, it's mostly men, to shepherd others when they haven't ever even been expected to reconcile like their own souls. Not really, you know. Like the fact that therapy isn't a regular requirement for qualification of eldership is just one of the clearest signals to me of how ill-prepared they are. Like I've seen how teaching from unhealth can't help but draw unhealthy people. So then we have these churches that are filled up with like people who are going to stay right where they are. Like our souls are intricate and they're woven with like all these broken and unchecked stories, and I think that we need these deep excavations periodically, but even like regularly, because it's also been my experience that therapy is not really talked about in the greater church, like the big C church, and so I feel like, I guess at this point, I'm thinking like it's not enough for someone to just want to share their version of the gospel and like to build their version of what it looks like to help people cause I just don't think you can help anyone if you don't even know how much help you need.
Nicki: Oh, that's so good. Yeah. Well, I think even Megan's observation about the self-discovery and self-compassion going hand in hand echoes what you were saying even about like being kind to yourself. And it reminded me of the internal family systems model of therapy, which we both have as the model within our therapy and in the book Boundaries for Your Soul by Alison Cook and Kimberly Miller. And so I want to read a part from that where they wrote about how you're leading from your Spirit-led self when you're experiencing curiosity and compassion toward your sanctimonious managers, your straying firefighters and suffering exiles that make up your internal family, because these are parts of you. And Jesus spent time with people who were sanctimonious, who were straying, and who were suffering, and what did Jesus do? Jesus extended curiosity and compassion. So we can invite Jesus to be near to those parts of us and know that there is love, there is grace, and acceptance. And then we can unburden the false belief burdens that we're carrying around, weighing us down. So how has it been for you specifically to lead your internal family from your Spirit-led self by having that curiosity and compassion for these various parts inside of you?
Danielle: Yeah. I know like some part of me is like, I mean, you said it and it's great. You don't need me here. But I guess I would say like that there's been a whole posture shift because I don't think I've ever, I think I've only ever resented and cursed the broken places in me. Like I've never been kind or compassionate enough to myself to try and hear from those places. So like my life experience has been anchored in the idea that like if I just obliterate the ugly overflow in me and if I'm just tough enough and disciplined enough and like if I just have that willing to beat myself kind of grit, that I'll get through it or like I can just kill those broken places in me. So I've sat under this more intentionally loving teaching in the last few years. And like for the first year, I would say there wasn't a service that I didn't come out of balling. Like it wrecked me because there was such an expression of compassion that came from his teaching. And it put me in this position of just being fed and being loved and being shepherded in a way that, to be quite honest, like I don't know that I ever have been. I have one youth pastor that I remember from when I was young that shepherded me that way, like in a way that even my parents didn't know how, so it's like, I'm thinking about how God is so kind to put me in this place where there's this desire to see me whole. But not because like shame or pressure or like my pain is annoying people or because like the church needs you to be healthy so you can do more ministries. You know, it's like my wholeness is one more small step toward, “On earth as it is in heaven.” And my wholeness is this compounding goodness, right. Like my wholeness means I get to invite people to join, and I can also like coach them from a better place, you know. And so while reconciling, right, like my original ideas of God that were like broken with my pictures of God and the way I always thought like parents reflected God, you know, like there's a lot of confusion and entanglement there. But in more recent years, I've been trying to reframe my perspective in light of the idea of Jesus as Emmanuel, right, like God with us. Because like Jesus isn't fragile, you know, he's so stable. So like when those reactionary places in me have space and I can hear them and he can hear them, I don't have to fear or get angry. It's like, it's okay. Like a lot of it makes so much sense even, you know, cause these roots are always set within like these deep wounds that haven't been addressed. And our, my therapist said this in the beginning of the time I was with her, she said that it's been so consistent in the 30 years she's been practicing that when we get curious and we give a voice to the exiles, those painful emotions that are like at the bottom of our reflex reactions, you discover there's always a why for the patterns and you position yourself to heal, so we can rest and thank our internal managers and defenses because they got us here. And then I would just say it's good to give room for free writing. I think that's probably where I've dug to the bottom of most of my roots that I've dealt with so far. Some of it happens in therapy, but a lot of the work in therapy happens like outside of it, you know, and so the idea of like free writing meaning like you don't stop, you just pour what's in your head out onto the paper. There's no critiquing it or like structuring it or it's just like, you don't fix anything you just plow through and dump all of your feelings onto this paper. And like she recommends actually that you throw it out, but I have kept a few of them, and it is fascinating to see how powerful that is. Like journaling is crazy powerful.
Nicki: Dennissa Young just had a video performance come out, and it was called “Untethered,” and she's on the video, and there's music set to it, and one of the lines that is being sung is, “I must learn to love myself untethered,” and I'm like crying watching this, right, and I actually got to interview Dennissa for the podcast. And from the time that this releases, hers will have come out on October 20th, I believe. But one thing that we talked about on her call was how for most of our lives, we lacked an understanding of the “as yourself” piece of the command to love your neighbor as yourself. And yeah, like I shared how I'm still learning what it looks like to love myself as an image bearer and just show that same compassion and kindness to myself that I want to show to others. And yeah. And how, in order to love myself correctly, and I thought about, you know, the benediction at Transformation, right, like love God completely, yourself correctly, go out and love your neighbor compassionately. And just this how loving myself is such new territory, because yeah, like for so often I was told, and I remember telling others that like, “We don't need to be taught to love ourselves. Like we already do. Of course there's not a command for it. We already do.” But now I see the flaws in that because this idea is that to love yourself would mean to be selfish and narcissistically focusing on yourself, but I'm like, well, that kind of love is no love at all. Right. But if I, I want to use some of Dennissa's words here, she talked about how she wants her art to foster gentleness and radical empathy and softness. And I just loved those words. And so I was like, man, if I can foster those things in me toward myself, then what's going to happen. That's going to spill over so that I can love my neighbor with gentleness, radical empathy, and softness, love them as I love myself because how I love myself informs how I love my neighbor.
Danielle: Exactly.
Nicki: So that's just something I keep people thinking about now. And that came to my mind as you were sharing.
Danielle: Yeah. Yeah. That's so good. That's so good.
Nicki: Yeah. Well, Danielle, can you recall specific times that you can look at that validated the voice and the value of your body's intuition?
Danielle: Yes. So I didn't go super deep on this cause I just thought like it was simple, right. Like my body was telling me for years I knew I needed therapy, you know, and I didn't move forward and like it's this weird thing with like the power dynamics in my home at the time because I would have said that like I never wanted to overpower my husband anyway, and I still don't, right. Like I want us to have this equity in our relationship. I want us to co-labor. I want us to work together and move forward together. Like I don't want to plow through if he's not with me. So I always yielded like final decisions to him, right, and I think there would be a spin on that now because I know he didn't want me to go to therapy, and he just thought it was going to be dumb, and like they would just like try to force feed me, you know, like numbing medication. And, again, like he had this bad experience, so I get it right. But like my body knew. And even my mind at that point knew like, “You need to go.” And so that is, you know, now looking back, and even he will like remorsefully recall that and be like, “I wish I would've listened sooner,” you know, that it didn't have to get that bad. And then the other thing I was thinking was like when I had kids, I knew that they would mirror whatever my relationship was with my body. Like I just knew it, and it's probably because I see how much of mine is mirrored from what my mother like did with hers, you know, and I have one child who was just born this way. Like she would pick apart her body and her hair and her personality. Like she just didn't like herself. And she was little, and there was already so much of this negative self-talk. And I wasn't having it cause I was like, “No, we are not giving you this fresh brand new body and you've already got all this trash in your mind.” Like, no, cause it's like, she's already built this way, the world is going to push you that way even further, you know, she's already vulnerable to that negativity and that tearing of herself. So I would literally like make her shout, and I would tell her like, “You have to shout louder than the voices in your head and louder than the voices that are outside of your head. You have to shout that your body is perfect.” And so she still does this sometimes. I think now we probably use more language like good and sacred, but at the time I was just shooting from the hip, and I wasn't having it. So I was like, there's no word better than this right now. Like, but we know, right, we're not perfect, but our bodies are good and our bodies are sacred. And I have seen with her like live right in the wild, like she's rerouted so many self critiques with that exact like mantra.
Nicki: I'm curious. Do you think that being an Enneagram 6 better equipped you for saying like, “Shout louder than the voices in your head?”
Danielle: I don't know. Right. Like I haven't even thought about that. I know that like, there's, right, like the counterphobic in me for sure is like, runs toward these fears, you know, and I think I've never been more afraid than when I've had kids, right, cause there's just like this, there's so much responsibility. Like I've always known that it was going to take my all and that they didn't ask for this. Like I brought them here, you know, and I’ve always wanted to love them like I wasn't loved, and so like I care so much about their thought life because I want them to talk to me, like I want them to not get stuck, you know, cause like at least if they can share what they’re thinking, right, then I can help them reconcile, and I’m not gonna fix them all the way, right, I’m going to just be a persistent voice of kindness and reason and gentleness, and when they critique others so harshly, I know that that, right, is like their own voice critiquing themselves. Like if you’re out here tearing people apart, it says a lot about what your thought life is toward yourself, and so my goal is like you have to be louder, like you know, you have to wrestle and force these good, sacred ideas into your mind because the world is coming at you at like a thousand miles an hour, and the messages you’re gonna get are going to like tear you apart, so yeah.
Nicki: Yeah, that’s, yeah, that’s so true. Well, Danielle, what resources have been most beneficial for you so far on this journey and which of those would you say someone needs to start with if they’re looking to broaden that narrative they were taught about themselves, their bodies, if it’s similar to your experience?
Danielle: Okay, so I had a few things. So like there’s tangible things that I did, and I talked about before, like the deep breathing cycles. My therapist was really good about like coaching me, like having some sort of autonomy over my body, like I never really considered myself an autonomous being, and so like giving myself permission to leave a room to regroup. Like even with my kids, like, you know, modeling that behavior, even like, “Mommy needs a minute,” like “Mommy needs to go have a minute, and I’ll be back.” And then I told you journaling, therapy obviously. I have some health bent friends, of which you are in the mix, and that’s been so helpful. So I’ve also learned what feels like rest to me. So like specifically me, what fills me, naps have been really important, like permission for naps, you know, like listening to my body, and it’s like it’s tired. You don’t need another cup of coffee, like you need a rest. Getting 7 hours of sleep. There’s a lot of science behind that if you want to look into it, but like, 7 hours of sleep is super restorative for our bodies, and even 6 and a half, there’s like something really crazy that happens on the other side of 7 hours where like your body’s immunity is just so much more capable. So vegetables, like my body really does love vegetables. It feels so good when I eat them regularly. I talked about this already. Being outside, sunshine, being near water, especially the ocean. Drawing, organizing, squeezing my kids, laughing with TJ till I cry, and cooking good food for good friends. So those were like my tangibles, right, and then as far as mindset and mantra and like the nuggets that I’ve had, that have been beneficial, I have to always remind myself that like I have also been made in the image of God, and that just resets me whenever I’m not practicing kindness toward myself. I tell myself that my body is sacred and that it often knows truths before my mind does. I’ve learned to ask for what I need instead of expecting others to intuit my needs. And so then there’s books, and I don’t know if you want to list them here.
Nicki: Yeah. I can also put them in the show notes, but, yeah, you can list them here.
Danielle: Okay, so, it’s really bottomless, but these are like the 5 that should be like a curriculum at this point, but like so Burnout: The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle by Emily Nagoski, and she also wrote the book Come as You Are, and like both of those center on figuring out your body specifically. I just feel like I just haven’t had that experience. My mom didn’t understand her body, she still doesn’t sometimes, the things she says makes me laugh, like, you know, she came from like a really ethnic Italian background, and so it was just a lot of silencing about bodies, but anyway, so Burnout is fantastic. Come as You Are. Sacred Rest by Saundra Dalton-Smith is so good, and she even, I’m pretty sure there’s a message that she taught that’s available from Transformation.
Nicki: Yeah.
Danielle: Yeah. That was so good when she came. Another one that was like I couldn’t even believe it existed I was so grateful, it’s called Mothers, Daughters, and Body Image by Hillary McBride. She has a podcast, too, which is so good, and I meant to write that down, but Other People’s Problems is the podcast she hosts, and she kind of just lets you in on, she’s a therapist, and so she lets you in on these sessions with people, and it is both fascinating and enlightening. It’s so good, it’s so intimate, it’s crazy that some people, I mean obviously they don’t share their names or anything, but the fact that people would be so vulnerable publicly. And so then Boundaries for Your Soul, which you know, by Kimberly Miller and Alison Cook. And then there’s 2 episodes of The Robcast where his wife comes on and talks about anxiety, and so I’m gonna send you the links for those.
Nicki: Yeah.
Danielle: I think it’s like episode 126, I don’t know, I’m gonna send you the links. And then I wrote like literally every episode of The Next Right Thing with Emily P. Freeman. She has like this voice that is so, so sweet and kind and gentle. It’s so relaxing to hear her talk, and she’s just, she’s a 9 on the Enneagram, so she just, I don’t know, she’s one of the kindest people, and she’s so good about telling you how to like just move a little bit, you know, and just see what’s right in front of you. Her whole podcast is so good.
Nicki: Yeah. Those are awesome. Thanks.
Danielle: I’m sorry. There’s so many more, but I was just like this is probably like the boiled down most important.
Nicki: Yes. That’s awesome. Well, friend, we have just a few questions before our time recording will be over, but what advice do you have for others who are broadening the narrative about themselves, their bodies, their emotions, and their intuition?
Danielle: Right, so I would say observe and listen. I would say you should try new things and old things. I think you should reevaluate things that overwhelm you. You should pay close attention to your body’s reactions. You should spend time journaling, like the free journaling the way I was talking about earlier, and you should think about your most favorite childhood memories because for me at least that’s when I figured out what rest looked like for me specifically. So my body like held onto those things for a reason, you know, and so the images that I have as a child and then my most favorite memories are the things that still fill me to this day, so that’s what rest would look like for me now. Yeah. I think that’s it.
Nicki: Yeah, well what is your hope for people as the narrative is broadened for you?
Danielle: So I just want to say, friends, for real, like can we just get free? Like can we heal and begin to trust our vessels as complete and good and holy and sacred? Can we believe that they are the dynamic vehicle God has given us to redeem creation, to reconcile heaven on earth? Can we ignore arbitrary beauty standards and just put on clothes that make us feel good and enable us to do good work? And another thing, our self-talk matters because we have also been made in God’s image, and if you wouldn’t speak to the people you love with the thoughts you speak to yourself, then know that Jesus wouldn’t either. God is not scarce with his mercy and kindness, right. The Father’s the provider. The Father’s steady, the protector, the giver, the merciful, and at the table there is plenty, so dig in and have seconds because that is where we ought to anchor our days and meditations. Let’s thank the body we are in and make room to steward it with kindness because it’s good.
Nicki: I love that. That was so beautiful.
Danielle: I love you.
Nicki: I just don’t want this to be over, but what is one action that you can commit to bring your hope to fruition?
Danielle: So I will keep sharing what I’ve learned, and I will continue to invite others into this freedom.
Nicki: Yes. Yes. And again, I said this at the beginning, but it’s because of you, you invited me, and I am just forever grateful. And, my friend, thank you for coming onto the show. I just, I always love listening to you.
Danielle: You’re so funny.
Nicki: I just really appreciate you sharing your story, and I just love you so much.
Danielle: I love you so much.
Transition Music
Closing: I want to thank Sequana Murray for the voice clip she sent to me for the episode intro. You can purchase her music on Bandcamp at bandy17.bandcamp.com. Her music is available on most streaming services under the name Bandy. I also want to thank Jordan Lukens for his help with editing and Danielle Bolin for creating the episode graphic. Please subscribe and review the show, but only if you’re planning on leaving a 5-star review. Otherwise, you can just skip this part. You can access the Broadening the Narrative blog by visiting broadeningthenarrative.blogspot.com, and you can find the Broadening the Narrative page on Instagram by searching for @broadeningthenarrative and on Twitter by searching for @broadnarrative. I hope that if you know and love me you can engage with the Broadening the Narrative blog, social media accounts, and podcast, as well as any recommended resources. Then, you can share with people who know and love you, and little by little, person by person, we can broaden the narrative. Grace and peace, friends.
Outro Music
